[diana_eva]

Simple hand, nothing tricky. I passed at the table but on second thought maybe I should raise to 3? Not sure about it - would you?

---

[aguahombre]

To what purpose? Are you thinking "bar bid", or inviting game? Raising to 3 will keep them out, but maybe that isn't what we want. I wonder if this time it is right to walk the dog, and let them balance before bidding 3 --- shooting for +200 if they take the bait and bid again. Matchpoint 500? Matchpoint minus 730? What fun.

IMO, inviting game is wrong.

[the hog]

Pass.

[Trinidad]

Pass. It is ok to put down a good dummy every now and then.

Rik

[helene_t]

Your 1♠ bid may have inhibited the best lead so you could be lucky. But Our tricks are slow. If partner has solid diamonds and ♥A, he won't have anything else so they can probably take five tricks straight away. If his diamonds are not solid, there is a long way to nine tricks. Game will probably either be on a diamond finese or have no play.

[whereagles]

It's not forcing and pass is totally correct.

[diana_eva]

OK thanks much. Pd commented he expected a raise with a fit and 9-10 points. This was IMPs, I forgot to mention.

[Cyberyeti]

 diana_eva, on 2014-March-19, 05:28, said:

OK thanks much. Pd commented he expected a raise with a fit and 9-10 points. This was IMPs, I forgot to mention.

What had they bid 2♦ on ? sounds like they forgot to bid 3 if you missed game, x, Axx, AKxxxxx, Qx ?

[PhilKing]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-19, 05:33, said:

What had they bid 2♦ on ? sounds like they forgot to bid 3 if you missed game, x, Axx, AKxxxxx, Qx ?

♠x
♥Ax
♦Axxxxxx
♣Axx

is enough.

[gwnn]

Pass and head for the partnership desk after the postmortem.

[mikeh]

There are a host of hands on which we'd want to be in a vulnerable 3N at imps.

I'd like to know how he would rebid with 1=4=5=3. If he'd routinely bid 2♦ rather than 1N or a fudged but often very effective 2♣ then we don't have the safety either in diamonds or notrump to bid much more. However, if we can safely assume a 6 card diamond suit, I think that we can afford to squeak out a 3♦ raise.

At mps, I'd pass in a heartbeat, and white at imps would also get me passing, but red at imps is a different story.

[kenrexford]

The first question I would have is whether partner could have opened a third-seat 2♦ as weak. A red weak two has some meat, especially opposite a passed hand. The 1♦...2♦ sequence opposite a passed hand should, IMO, be sounder than the same sequence in 1st/2nd seat, especially red.

The second question I would underline (because another asked it) is whether partner rebids 2♣ (like he should IMO) with 1-4-5-3, or at least avoids 2♦ by bidding 1NT.

Assuming both of these, 2♦ should IMO show six diamonds and should be non-minimum to a degree, possibly with a four-card heart suit.

The third question, then, is whether I have a call for both majors immediately. For instance, if P-P-1♦-P-2♥ shows 4-5 hearts and 5 spades, this opens up options for me in this sequence.

The reason for the third question is that I like special tools in this type of sequence. Consider the loose parallel of the same auction but a 1NT response instead. In that sequence (P-1♦, 1NT-2♦), I like any new suit call to show "stuff" and a constructive raise of diamonds. If the third question is answered in the way that enables this, P-1♦, 1♠-2♦, 2♥ as a stuff bid with a constructive diamond raise looks really nice.

All that said, the major problem in this sequence is that I have slow values. Slow values suggests a "cloud 3NT" contract, meaning work to do, meaning a need for generally more assets. Contrast this with a different 9-count like two side Aces (where I can bid my side Ace if that has that meaning) or AK in spades with the Q-third in diamonds, where we can make 9 quick tricks with only about 20-21 HCP, as long as they cannot cash 5 tricks quickly.

Sure -- partner might have quicks on the side. However, we need some method of distinguishing our hand type against his, and there is precious space available. Dedicating bids to have "stuff" mean possibly Aces or possibly slow values is too much. Hence, my "stuff" means quicks -- Aces or Ace-Kings. However, reversing meanings makes sense also (cue with stuff, quantitative with pure Aces).

Thus, the only option I would have is 3♦ as a general quantitative invite. Do I have enough?

Suppose partner opened 1NT as 15-17 and I had a six-card diamond suit to possibly run. This is that in reverse, but with some of my balanced-hand assets in his hand. I have 9 HCP. I need 6-8 to reach 15-17. So, I take 7 away from partner's hand. Will he have a hand that would gamble 3NT opposite 15-17 if he removes 7 HCP? If 2♦ is "sound," what does that mean?

A solution for this problem, then, is to pre-think partner's opening style, to a degree. If you and partner discuss this auction type, you might define the tipping point between a 2♦ opening and a 1♦...2♦ alternative so as to go the latter route only if you would be comfortable in 3♦ if partner makes a 3♦ invite of 3NT using these principles, and then define what is needed for that 3♦ quantitative invite. If your opening style in 1st seat is "just about any 11-count," then a decent-looking 9-10 surely is worthy of a quantitative invite of 3♦, right?

Because of all this, then, I would in practice make a quantitative 3♦ invite. This should be safe because partner would have opened 2♦ with the hand where 3♦ by me with this hand is bad.

[diana_eva]

1♦ - 2♦ promised 6, yet not some fantastic hand. We aren't regulars, but I had seen him rebid this way with hands that couldn't be opened 2♦ because they had the honors in side suits. So it could well be an 11-12 with a bad suit. The real deal he held a monster and a cow flew by. He accepted full blame, but that little comment of his made me wonder whether I should still stretch being vul at IMPs, even if he forgot to look at his own hand.

[gszes]

Some of opener's simple rebids 1d/2c 1d/2d 1c/2c are made because
they have no other adequate way of expressing their values and they
are not worried much about missing game if responder is around the
6 point range even if they have a fit. Think back to those days when
you learned to take a false preference to diamonds with 9 hcp after
1d 1M 2c (no opp bidding) with say Kxxx xxxx Kx Kxx to keep the bidding
alive in case opener had one of those 17+ hands they could not bid
any other way.

The same principle applies here where I would have bid 3d w/o the
heart J since I actually have a dia fit and since p rebid 2d missing
KQ we can count on some extra length making game a much better shot
than normal. Once in a while we will go down but at IMPS that is fine
as long as we get to our games. Stretching hands like these just a bit
keep opener from having to jump all over creation with anything that
looks like maybe it has extra values. They can keep the bidding low
and trust you will keep the bidding alive.

[kenrexford]

 diana_eva, on 2014-March-19, 12:09, said:

1♦ - 2♦ promised 6, yet not some fantastic hand. We aren't regulars, but I had seen him rebid this way with hands that couldn't be opened 2♦ because they had the honors in side suits. So it could well be an 11-12 with a bad suit. The real deal he held a monster and a cow flew by. He accepted full blame, but that little comment of his made me wonder whether I should still stretch being vul at IMPs, even if he forgot to look at his own hand.

Honors in the side suits is less important in third seat. If you are planning to open 1♦ and then bid 2♦ no matter what partner says, open 2♦.

[Cascade]

 diana_eva, on 2014-March-19, 12:09, said:

1♦ - 2♦ promised 6, yet not some fantastic hand. We aren't regulars, but I had seen him rebid this way with hands that couldn't be opened 2♦ because they had the honors in side suits. So it could well be an 11-12 with a bad suit. The real deal he held a monster and a cow flew by. He accepted full blame, but that little comment of his made me wonder whether I should still stretch being vul at IMPs, even if he forgot to look at his own hand.

Do you always rebid 1NT with a minimum 1453 ?

Without a ruffing value I don't think the given hand is close to raising to 3♦.

[MrAce]

 gwnn, on 2014-March-19, 07:45, said:

Pass and head for the partnership desk after the postmortem.

You must be a frequent customer of pdship desk