[FrancesHinden]

Playing a 64- board match, the opponents at your table are a pair who have won the Bermuda Bowl, you hold

♠KQ42
♥A65
♦AKJ64
♣10

The auction is, starting on your right,

P 1D P 1S
1NT 4C 4H P
P 4S P 5H
P 6S P P
dbl ?

4C = splinter
Partner's pass over 4H was more encouraging than bidding 4S

note: read the auction carefully. It is the opening leader who has doubled.

[gszes]

I do not know why lho x our 6s but I see no reason to
turn what might be a small penalty into a big one. We
may be ice cold maybe lho plans to underlead their
club A to their p for a dia ruff (the x would not seem
necessary for that however)heck lho may be x just to try
and confuse you in case you have choices in your LOP (and
they are willing to concede the extra points for the x
to make it work).

No matter what LHO reason it still makes no sense to xx
since we cannot be 100% sure this is the right place to be.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-February-16, 14:35, said:

Playing a 64- board match, the opponents at your table are a pair who have won the Bermuda Bowl, you hold

♠KQ42
♥A65
♦AKJ64
♣10

The auction is, starting on your right,

P 1D P 1S
1NT 4C 4H P
P 4S P 5H
P 6S P P
dbl ?

4C = splinter
Partner's pass over 4H was more encouraging than bidding 4S

note: read the auction carefully. It is the opening leader who has doubled.

I voted for redouble, because I couldn't figure out how RHO could hold a hand on which he knows, with any assurance, that he can beat us. Partner can't have a trump loser to cooperate with slam missing all the side Aces and the KQ of spades.

Then I realized what may be going on here. RHO knows we're off the club A and he has a diamond void. He's leading a small club and getting the ruff.

I can't run to 7♦, however, since LHO is leading that very same Ace. It is possible that we make 6N if partner has 6 spades, the diamond Q and either enough length or the 10, and the club K...but I'm not prepared to risk down a zillion hoping for that card. After all, if rho is seeing deeply enough into the hand, he'd realize that a low club lead might well get the diamond back anyway.....we have had a pretty revealing auction, which will become even more informative once dummy hits. So why would he risk us running to 6N unless he knew he was beating that as well? This does degenerate into a regressive spy v spy analysis if we go too far down that rabbit hole, and I may be overthinking matters. But I am sticking with where I've got so far.

So I am asking for an undo on my redouble and I am going to pass and accept -1.

I think partner, at least in theory, still has a chance if he has the right cards for 6N. I think he can assume I hold the heart A for my bidding and so he 'might' be able to bid 6N with say AJxxxx x Q10x Kxx, but of course if his heart cue promised first round control, all bets are off. I'm not at all optimistic.

[JLOGIC]

I don't know what he's doing but I cannot bid anything so I won't worry about it. If it's right to run to 6N it will be partner who has the decision.

[nige1]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-February-16, 14:35, said:

Playing a 64- board match, the opponents at your table are a pair who have won the Bermuda Bowl, you hold
♠ K Q 4 2 ♥ A 6 5 ♦ A K J 6 4 ♣ 10
The auction is, starting on your right,
(_P) 1♦ (_P) 1♠
(1N) 4♣ (4♥) _P
(_P) 4♠ (_P) 5♥
(_P) 6♠ (_P) _P
(_X) ??
4♣ = splinter
Partner's pass over 4H was more encouraging than bidding 4S
note: read the auction carefully. It is the opening leader who has doubled.

IMO Pass = 10, XX = 9, 6N = 5. JLOGIC persuades me, again

[PhilKing]

Partner is the one who knows whether he has the diamond queen and a club control for 6NT. I know the hand, obviously, but you have given us the wrong hand with which to do anything. In practice, redoubling would stop partner bidding 6NT, even if there is an argument that it should not.

[rhm]

JLOGIC, on 2014-February-16, 15:26, said:

I don't know what he's doing but I cannot bid anything so I won't worry about it. If it's right to run to 6N it will be partner who has the decision.

If I understand the bidding partner has shown a void in hearts and probably denied the ace of clubs.
I pass, but I can not see partner ever running to 6N

Rainer Herrmann

[PhilKing]

rhm, on 2014-February-16, 16:41, said:

If I understand the bidding partner has shown a void in hearts and probably denied the ace of clubs.
I pass, but I can not see partner ever running to 6N

Rainer Herrmann

Why does pard have a void?

[bluecalm]

As partner bid void in hearts and lack of Ac they probably want to lead a club and get a diamond ruff.
If partner has something along the lines of: AJxxxx - Qxxx ??? Does it make a difference to his bidding if he has KQx or xxx of clubs ?
I don't think so so I can't really run to 6N. I would like to say "Partner, run if you have Kc but I can't imagine redouble conveys that message :-)
I've never played top level bridge so I am used to assuming there is significant chance that they just did something silly. If I am 100% sure they know what they are doing it might be a worthy gamble to run. Sometimes I am going to be down 6 but sometimes I swinging ~30imps by turning -1 into =.
As I don't believe location of Kc makes any difference to the bidding in this hand I think there is about 1/4 to 1/3 chance partner has it (as he should have 3-4 clubs on average). So yeah, if I am certain they are serious I should run based on that assumptions.
On the other hand if they are so good and never brain fart why would they double anyway ? Just lead the lowest club and partner works it out.
I can't imagine ever making decision to run in real play.

Quote

Why does pard have a void?

He cuebid twice = 1st round control and we hold the ace.

EDIT:
One more thought I just had:
With 3505 LHO's lowest club is his natural lead if they play 3/5. That might be a reason to double. If they played say 2/4 then the lowest one is often going to be readable as something strange to partner.

[rhm]

PhilKing, on 2014-February-16, 17:11, said:

Why does pard have a void?

Maybe I am out of touch with the latest slam bidding gadgets.
For me partner bid 5♥ in the following sequence:

P 1D P 1S
1NT 4C 4H P
P 4S P 5H

If partner has no first round control in any side suit I would expect him to either Pass or bid 4NT over 4♠.
With the ace of clubs I would have expected a control bid in that suit if partner does not want to pass 4♠.
Looking at the ace of hearts yourself what is a control bid of 5♥ supposed to show then?


Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

If partner had a heart void, he might have bid 5♥ directly over 4♥.

[bluecalm]

Quote

If partner had a heart void, he might have bid 5♥ directly over 4♥.

Why would he ? It's useful for him to wait and see if we bid 5♣ first.
Anyway, he is not cuebidding Kh/x twice so void is the only possibility left now.

[rhm]

gnasher, on 2014-February-17, 03:07, said:

If partner had a heart void, he might have bid 5♥ directly over 4♥.

He might or he might not, but your point begs the question what is partner doing then?
I maintain, with no first round control in any side suit a sensible partner would bid 4NT or pass 4♠, in particular since he is missing the ♠KQ as well.
With the ace of clubs and second round control in hearts partner would bid 5♣ or 4NT, but not 5♥.
With concern about hearts he would bid 5♠.
So what is a delayed 5♥ bid showing?

Rainer Herrmann

[FrancesHinden]

bluecalm, on 2014-February-17, 03:36, said:

Why would he ? It's useful for him to wait and see if we bid 5♣ first.
Anyway, he is not cuebidding Kh/x twice so void is the only possibility left now.

Partner hasn't cued hearts twice. LHO bid 4H.

[mfa1010]

A little better to use the diagram. I misread the auction too.

Anyway, I don't see that we can bid anything now.

[gnasher]

rhm, on 2014-February-17, 04:40, said:

He might or he might not, but your point begs the question what is partner doing then?
I maintain, with no first round control in any side suit a sensible partner would bid 4NT or pass 4♠, in particular since he is missing the ♠KQ as well.
With the ace of clubs and second round control in hearts partner would bid 5♣ or 4NT, but not 5♥.
With concern about hearts he would bid 5♠.
So what is a delayed 5♥ bid showing?

Perhaps he has second-round heart control and nothing to cue-bid in a minor, eg AJxxxx x Qxx xxx. I know you think that hand should bid Keycard, but pass followed by 5♥ caters for a club void cleanly, whereas 4NT doesn't.

Edit: Following this sequence with AJxxxx x Qxx xxx hand also caters for the possibility that we're missing an ace and ♦K, eg when opener has KQxx AKx AJ10xx x.

[FrancesHinden]

mfa1010, on 2014-February-17, 06:25, said:

A little better to use the diagram. I misread the auction too.

Anyway, I don't see that we can bid anything now.

The insert diagram button wasn't working when I posted this from an airport lounge (the connection was poor, it just kept timing out)

[bluecalm]

Quote

Partner hasn't cued hearts twice. LHO bid 4H.

Right, I misread the auction somehow.
It doesn't matter much for our decision though I think.
I think they are probably leading a club and ruffing a diamond. Partner won't do anything about it and we need to be very confident they are setting 6S to risk down 5 in 6N. I can't imagine being that confident but maybe there exists people who are so disciplined and good that I should be against them

[helene_t]

JLOGIC, on 2014-February-16, 15:26, said:

If it's right to run to 6N it will be partner who has the decision.

Couldn't partner think that our failure to redouble shows a first round club control?

Edit: Just realised we probably would have bid 6♣ instead of 6♠ in that case.

[JLOGIC]

bluecalm, on 2014-February-17, 08:30, said:

Right, I misread the auction somehow.
It doesn't matter much for our decision though I think.
I think they are probably leading a club and ruffing a diamond. Partner won't do anything about it and we need to be very confident they are setting 6S to risk down 5 in 6N. I can't imagine being that confident but maybe there exists people who are so disciplined and good that I should be against them

If partner has the CK and the DQ and long spades he will definitely consider doing something. He also knows why they probably doubled. He knows we have the AK of diamonds and the HA since we bid a slam after he had denied all of those things + the CA. I doubt the KQ of spades will shock him since we forced to game over a 1S response, then we bid a slam over 5H. He knows we have 4 spades, and we are very likely to have 5 diamonds (with 4441 we probably would have doubled 4H, and the opps would not have bid 4H only 8 hearts assuming partner has 1). He does not know about the jack of diamonds but it's a pretty reasonable gamble if he has the hand where 6N has a shot.

On that note, 6N probably does not have a shot unless partner has 6 spades even if he does have the CK, the opponents will figure out to lead a heart. But anyways, we have nothing unexpected for partner so he is certainly in the game to run when it's right, and I expect him to do so if he does have the right hand since he can basically figure out our hand. On the other hand, we do not know anything about his club holding and it could be silly to run. The whole idea that we should run because we know why they have doubled is insulting to partner, he also has a brain and knows why they doubled.