[straube]

Anyone like 3C-3D as Ogust? 3C seems like it can be anything these days. Ogust would let responder choose better between 3N or some number of clubs. I suppose it could hold other meanings (tell meanings vs ask meanings).

I know others use 3D as 1) natural 2) asking for a major suit fragment 3) transfer.

[straube]

No responses thus far so I'll give a recent hand. I'd thought about Ogust-style responses before.

3C P ?

Ax AKQx AKxx Txx

Now I'd recently watched a Vugraph where 2nd seat favorable preempted 3C with Jxxx xx x KTxxxx and as we were favorable I certainly considered that partner could have real trash. Without agreement, how to tell?

He wound up with KQxxxx with a balanced hand and no other cards. I certainly wasn't surprised, but could he not have had AQxxxxx? We could be on the hook for a grand.

[DJNeill]

3C-3D = puppet to 3H (to play), then can remove to 3S (to play), 3N (optional, dependent on a non-crap suit), 4C (invite).

[straube]

DJNeill, on 2013-September-13, 14:57, said:

3C-3D = puppet to 3H (to play), then can remove to 3S (to play), 3N (optional, dependent on a non-crap suit), 4C (invite).

I like it. Thanks.

[straube]

btw, how would one invite a club slam using this? Also, have any gadget for opening 3D?

[dake50]

Any bid suggests higher. What does 3D: Ogust gain?
Won't each auction have an "I'm not liking higher" bid?
Won't each auction have an "I've got this single" bid later?
I actually like Nt feature: stop/lead-inhibit on the 3-level;
and short ask/tell at the 4-level, step bid for keys ask.
... Maybe Ogust by a passed hand: "with my stops, can I run 7xC in 3Nt?
with a fitting CQx?

[benlessard]

Tough to know what is best for a 3C opener, personnally I dont believe too much in improving the contract and prefer to focus on reaching the best game.

A la Rosenkraz
3M = a 6 card suit. opener can raise with a stiff H.
3D = ask for 3M

4D & 4M = show fit and ask for a control in the suit bid.

You reach a better 4M vs 3Nt contract at the cost of not being able to stop in 3M it also work pretty well with 55 in the majors.

[PhilG007]

straube, on 2013-September-13, 11:08, said:

Anyone like 3C-3D as Ogust? 3C seems like it can be anything these days. Ogust would let responder choose better between 3N or some number of clubs. I suppose it could hold other meanings (tell meanings vs ask meanings).

I know others use 3D as 1) natural 2) asking for a major suit fragment 3) transfer.

I've never liked Ogust IMHO it belongs to the Twilight Zone.
In my experience Ogust generally leads to Disgust(!)

[rbforster]

benlessard, on 2013-September-16, 00:50, said:

3D = ask for 3M

You reach a better 4M vs 3Nt contract at the cost of not being able to stop in 3M it also work pretty well with 55 in the majors.

How about if 3♦ asks for openers shorter major? Then responder can bail into his long weak major by asking and passing. Maybe:

3♦ ask: could be weak with either major, or 5M GF, or looking for NT

3♥ less than 3♥
......P long weak hearts
......3♠ GF with 5 spades, looking for raise with 3♠ else 3N
......3N to play (GF with 5 hearts, or hoping for S fragment)
3♠ 3♥
......P long weak spades
......3N to play, likes the H fragment
......4♥ to play, could be the weak hand with a big fit

Right sides more games (NT by responder or strong major fit hands by responder), wrong sides the weak major signoffs, and doesn't handle well the 3307 or 3316 preempts (I.e. with both 3 card majors) but the former is super rare and the latter often ill-advised anyway.

[benlessard]

Your way is probably better but for simplicity on a rare sequence and to avoid some lead directing X natural is ok too. 4D can be used as 3-3 in the M.

[rbforster]

benlessard, on 2013-September-17, 17:33, said:

Your way is probably better but for simplicity on a rare sequence and to avoid some lead directing X natural is ok too. 4D can be used as 3-3 in the M.

Yes. I guess I wasn't sure how people used the 3♦ ask for a 3M, like if they had a weak major holding and hoped to try 3N only if partner had something there (else 4-5♣ perhaps?). If you give up on that and insist that repsonder have a 5M to ask (or else is willing to go past 3N on power, etc), you can use add a 3N answer for both (keeping the cheapest step as possibly no 3M). :

3H spades or none
3S hearts
3N both 3Ms
......4M signoffs, could be weak with a big fit

This gets responder to play all the 3NT contracts (since you always play in a major when opener bids 3N), and gets you out in 3M or 4M with a long weak suit (a level higher only if partner has a 3 card fit for you). All the strong major fit auctions should also be right-sided to play by responder.

[dake50]

Tough to know what is best for a 3C opener, personnally I dont believe too much in improving the contract and prefer to focus on reaching the best game.

A la Rosenkraz
3M = a 6 card suit. opener can raise with a stiff H.
3D = ask for 3M

4D & 4M = show fit and ask for a control in the suit bid.

You reach a better 4M vs 3Nt contract at the cost of not being able to stop in 3M it also work pretty well with 55 in the majors.
*** Thanks for refreshing Rosenkrantz' methods. I'm nearly to that point in developing my new partnership.

[Zelandakh]

There are a fair few threads where the 3♦ response to a 3♣ opening has been discussed, including a few where Justin wrote his method. My favourite idea is for 3♦ to ask for the lowest suit where Opener does not hold a 3 card major, so 3♥ = <3 hearts; 3♠ = 3 hearts, <3 spades; 3NT = 3-3 majors. This has the benefit of right-siding contracts wherever possible and also lets you get out in 3♥ much of the time if you want to. You can also add, inter alia, the minor suit slam tries in there in addition to the hands with 5 card majors. PK has also posted a skip-bid style method but it is slightly different:

PhilKing, on 2012-November-28, 18:48, said:

Best is for 3♥ to show no 3-card major (3♠ now asks for good clubs), 3♠ to show three hearts and 3NT to show three spades, but the world is not ready. That way you get no trumps played the right way up as well, and when the 3♣ opener has 3♠, it may be right for 3NT to be played from his side.