[cherdano]

Antrax, on 2013-August-16, 22:07, said:

I'm seriously considering emigration. When talking with a friend he half-jokingly warned me that I'll move to a new country only to find a new set of issues to complain about.
This seems like a multinational enough place, so what really bugs you about where you live? I'd start but it would turn this into an Israel discussion and I'd rather avoid that particular angle for now.
Thanks!

How much time have you spent abroad? (Vacations don't count.)

[cherdano]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-17, 09:47, said:

The USA is the developed country with the lowest tax rates for the wealthy

Double.

Quote

where the economy is most governed by the free market.

Do you have measurable evidence for this? I really don't know to be honest, I just learned to distrust general impressions on such questions.

[Antrax]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-17, 01:29, said:

Simple example: You go and buy a car. How much should you pay for it? You don't know, you pay too much. Living abroad is expensive.

Fun fact: cars are taxed around 150% in Israel, and that's before the insane fuel tax. It's actually a bit funny, because due to the tax, a car is very expensive. And then when you need to raise taxes, you go for cars, because they're for rich people anyway.

cherdano, on 2013-August-17, 09:49, said:

How much time have you spent abroad? (Vacations don't count.)

I lived in the US for six months. Does that count?

[Antrax]

Upon further reflection, maybe I should elaborate why I want to leave.
Simply put, Israel is slowly turning into a theocratic dictatorship. It's going pretty much by the books. The economy is ***** and it's being blamed on outside factors, specifically on immigrants. Xenophobia is on the rise - not only anti-arab racism, which has always existed, but now immigrants are also blamed for spreading disease and crime. The IDF is now above all criticism, and Judaism is slowly being integrated into schools. First steps are being taken towards securing extra rights to those who serve in the army. Segregation between the sexes is supported by the state. Peaceful demonstrations are routinely being broke up violently, with the main stream view being "good, they're traitors for not agreeing with the government". There's a significant minority in power that outright says that Israel should be Jewish first and democratic second.
Oh, and the state continuously accumulates more power. In two years I'll be forced to give my fingerprints to a state-managed database - but that's cool, because you need a police officer to authorize access, so it's probably safe enough, right?
I have more, if that's not convincing enough. But basically, it's not me being spoiled, it's this country going to hell.
[edit]
lol, the word for excrement is probably the least awful swear word in the text above. Good job, BBF censor.

[blackshoe]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-17, 09:47, said:

So, because taxes are increased and the free market is limited, the people who would like low taxes and a free market will decide to move to a country where taxes are higher and the market is less free?!?

The USA is the developed country with the lowest tax rates for the wealthy where the economy is most governed by the free market. (Americans might wonder: "What else could govern the economy but the free market?") The wealthy may complain, but leaving the USA? NO WAY!! Where would they go?

Rik

I reported what the media (well, okay, it was Fox News — and I'm sure you believe they're worse liars than the rest of the MSM) has reported here. The articles I saw did not say where these folks were going, or how the taxes there compare to here.

[cherdano]

Antrax, on 2013-August-17, 09:56, said:

I lived in the US for six months. Does that count?

Sure. But you should keep in mind that while immigrants to the US bitch about their new country as much as anyone (I am not blameless), it is much easier to feel at home there than when you move to a European country. It's not easy to explain why. Maybe US culture is less idiosyncratic than European cultures - or where it is, it is not as hidden. Of course all this is based on observations mostly within in my own little world aka academia, though a pretty international little world.

I had meant to say that most people overestimate how much the political problems in their country they like to bitch about affects their lives. I mean, Adam has every right to complain that too much of his salary is spent on aircraft carriers and tanks. But if he lived in Italy instead, it's still safe to assume his salary would be much lower there.
After 6 years in the US, I moved back to Europe. But that much more to do with zoning laws in Connecticut than with looking ahead to 10 years of Republican majority in congress.
But I don't feel qualified to make such a comment to someone from Israel - when your kids are looking forward to years of mandatory military service, it certainly makes a lot of sense to worry about irrational security policies.

[mgoetze]

cherdano, on 2013-August-17, 15:20, said:

I had meant to say that most people overestimate how much the political problems in their country they like to bitch about affects their lives.

Indeed, before this last bit of the thread I was about to answer "well, there are a lot of things I don't like about Germany, but they probably wouldn't be very relevant to you if you are only planning to live here for 5-10 years."

To be honest I think if you are bothered by a government near the "dictatorship" end of the scale then your options are very limited nowadays. Switzerland would be a place to look into.

[Antrax]

Really? I thought Germany learned the correct lesson from the holocaust. Which reminds me, it's fun fact time! In the late 90s when Jews from Ethiopia moved to Israel, they were given contraceptive shots without their knowledge. When they donated blood, it was dumped to the trash as a matter of policy.

I don't like Switzerland because it also has mandatory conscription and they have atomic fallout shelters in every house.

[Antrax]

BTW, I'm still interested in the question in the OP. I realise moving to a new country incurs costs, and I know being far away from the grandparents when you have a small child is a pain. I'm curious to see if there are factors I didn't think about that might sway my decision.

[Trinidad]

Well, to answer the question in the OP: Nothing really bugs me in my country. Yes, there are political things (where populist hostility to Moroccan/Turkish/Eastern European/Carribean is at the top of my list). I don't want to correct you, but what is relevant for you to consider a move to The Netherlands is what would bug or please YOU. Since I don't know that, I listed some of the characteristics for The Netherlands. You can decide whether they are appealing or whether they bug you.

The Netherlands (with the Scandinavian countries) scores very high on the happiness scale. People are happy here and if you think that is important that would be a reason to chose for The Netherlands or Scandinavia. (This week I heard someone -Dutch- say on TV that The Netherlands culturally belongs to Scandinavia. I think he is right.)

I realize it will not be a deciding factor, but bridge is pretty popular and very well organized in The Netherlands. This might contribute to your happiness too.

The high population density might be a drawback: Certainly in the West there are people everywhere. Housing is expensive since there is little space available. Another thing to get used to - if you are used to living in mountains or forested areas - is the flatness and open space as soon as you get out of the city. Everywhere you look there is blue sky. I know people who used to feel uncomfortable by that.

The Netherlands is a child friendly country. There are lots of public playgrounds, the school system is excellent and free upto 18 years (and college/university is inexpensive), children's hobbies (sports, music, arts) are supported and well organized.

It is good to realize that The Netherlands is culturally divided into a few regions that live happily together.

- The West has a high population density with the four largest cities: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht. This is a cultural melting pot.

Though religion doesn't play a major role in everyday life and most people don't believe, it does decide about the culture of the other three regions.
- South of the Rhine is traditionally catholic. People are outgoing. There are lots of restaurants and bars. The catholic nature of the region pops up from time to time, e.g. during Carnaval.
- The North is traditionally protestant (calvinist). People are generally introvert, but they are very happy with their calm life. Religion doesn't play a role in public life. It is kept behind the front door.
- The Bible belt runs from the South West to the North East across the country as a 30 km wide belt. Here, the calvinist religion plays a role in everyday life. You won't make yourself popular if you mow the lawn on Sunday.

Because of this cultural diversity, the general attitude is "live and let live". Though the Dutch will have an opinion on everything, everybody should do what he is comfortable with himself, as long as he doesn't bother anyone else.

Rik

[blackshoe]

A minor nit, but… your school system isn't free. Somebody is paying for it, somehow.

[kenberg]

Discussing my dislikes presents, I think, a serious for coherence of the thread. No doubt someone will want to dispute my choices. But here is one thing.

I feel I have always strongly resisted being categorized. In recent years we seem to want to put everyone in a box and label it. Some recent examples:

1. There was a story about people being deported after being caught up in various crimes. OK, but the thrust was that some of theses people had served honorably in the military, and for some reason that should give them a pass. I don't mind at all looking into a person's life story and potential for subsequent responsible behavior before deporting him I don't see why we would want to make the decision based solely on whether the miscreant had once been in the Marines.

2, Recently there has been some tightening up of government loans to parents of college students, based on the parents' bad credit ratings. I have seen two lengthy articles about the effect that this will have on Historically Black Colleges and Universities. Neither article discussed exactly how the criteria were revised, what the default rate was under the old criteria, or anything at all that might indicate whether the revised standards made sense for loans. I would be ok with giving money to students in some cases, assuming it is clearly understood as a gift. Giving money as a loan that is highly unlikely to be repaid, a gift that is mis-labeled as a loan, is a bad idea all around, and I would like to see it discussed independently of skin color.

This seems to be more and more the way we think. Of course there have always been people who like to put other people into categories instead of thinking of them as individuals. But we used to think that such people were lazy thinkers. Now we seem to applaud such labeling.

[jdeegan]

As far as the USA goes, it seems to be at some kind of historic zenith for better or for worse. Politics are benign. Food is good. The women are beautiful. The right neighborhoods are safe. The right schools are good. Business is thriving, sort of. Skilled, and/or energetic immigrants with or without money are still welcomed. Public sector corruption is sort of under control. Don't offer bribes w/o knowing exactly what you are doing, if even then.

In the USA, easily given offers of friendship to immigrants or to any outsiders are almost always superficial. Still, it is always very easy, once you get in, to get established initially. Easy to get utilities. Easy to get a place to live. Easy to get credit. etc.

My advice, in this generation, is to come to America for your dream job, or for some other very good reason. Coming here on spec? Well, maybe, but perhaps not so much.

USA is very big. Some parts are booming (esp. oil and gas producing areas). Other parts are in the outhouse. Not where you want to go.

[mike777]

Free labor movement can and is restricted by Union and govt rules. This impacts movement within a company and between jobs or professions, much more than being able to move from country or state to another. Some countries and/or states have much more powerful union and govt rules when it comes to labor than others.

Sorry to hear but this one thread from OP sounds like a case of bad immigration laws, too restrictive to simply get into USA let alone find a job.
------------------


btw jdeegan makes important points but don't give up on going to down and out places...you can buy cheap, start your own bus, cheaper and if you fail,ok, but this country is a place of second and third chances...failure is not a mark of shame in the USA.

OTOH clearly the Dutch and Swedes rank higher on the happy scale.

[kenberg]

Quote

Sorry to hear but this one thread from OP sounds like a case of bad immigration laws, too restrictive to simply get into USA let alone find a job.
-

Yes, I have been hearing much about restrictive laws at the upper end of the skill market. . If it is true, and I gather that it is, we are cutting our own throats.Not smart.

[helene_t]

kenberg, on 2013-August-18, 19:54, said:

Yes, I have been hearing much about restrictive laws at the upper end of the skill market. . If it is true, and I gather that it is, we are cutting our own throats.Not smart.

Yes, last time I checked my immigration points for New Zealand I got close to 200 on a scale on which you need 100 to pass, but if I were to apply for a job in the USA my choice would be limited to large companies and universities that have in-house lawyers that are specialised in immigration, since an employer without such resources would not be willing to go through the costs and hassle.

[kenberg]

helene_t, on 2013-August-19, 02:17, said:

Yes, last time I checked my immigration points for New Zealand I got close to 200 on a scale on which you need 100 to pass, but if I were to apply for a job in the USA my choice would be limited to large companies and universities that have in-house lawyers that are specialised in immigration, since an employer without such resources would not be willing to go through the costs and hassle.

We need a "Bring Helene to the U.S.A" campaign. Both you and Antrax have mentioned this issue, and I have heard about it often.I am always willing to admit that there are things I don't know, but to me this seems totally nuts.

[Trinidad]

kenberg, on 2013-August-19, 06:41, said:

We need a "Bring Helene to the U.S.A" campaign.

Why? We want to keep her right here in Europe! (unless she really, really would like to move to the USA...)

Rik

[kenberg]

Maybe we can work out a trade. I can think of a couple of players that I would be willing to let go.

[jonottawa]

It would probably be quicker if I told you what I like about my country and right now I like this

What I don't like about America (NSFW - George Carlin)

I don't like pledges of allegiance. I don't like strong centralized governments. I don't like 2-party systems. I don't like theistic religions, though if people keep their religious beliefs to themselves I don't much care. I don't like monarchies. I don't like unelected political bodies (though to be fair, I think democracy is overrated, and benevolent dictatorships have their advantages, as long as I get to be the benevolent dictator (stealing from Dubya, I know, terrible.)) I don't like being told what natural substances I can or can't ingest. I don't think governments should be in the marriage business. I don't think a place called 'The Beer Store' should exist. I don't like vast, ever-widening, wealth disparity between the rich and poor. I think inheritance taxes and carbon taxes are awesome and should account for a far greater % of revenue than they do currently. I wish every year, we held a competition for public school kids to write an essay entitled 'What I dislike about my country' (and not reward those who say 'nothing' or who instead list all of our virtues) and have the best essays (with the authors identities hidden until after judging of course) awarded prizes and be given 15 minutes of fame.