[humilities]

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Questions;
- South's second bid is awkward. If he doubles (feels more natural) can he later talk his partner out of hearts?
- If South bids 4C over 3S, what should North do?
- Is there an intelligent way to get to 6C?
- Is South's 4S bid justifiable at matchpoints?


Our agreements:
- We play support doubles ... 99% of hands with 3card support make a support X.
- We have not discussed if you can get out of a support X (meaning make a later bid indicating that you really didn't have 3cd support).
- Our general rule is that in competition cue bids force game and almost all other bids are passable.
- We play good/bad 2NT on this auction but the good (direct 3C) is still passable by a minimum responder.

Special thanks to anyone that is helpful enough (or bored at work enough) to read all of the above

[ArtK78]

The auction seems fine up until the last call.

South should bid 4♣ over 3♠. North can then bid 4♥. After that, South has a decision to make. Whether the final contract is 4♥, 5♣ or 6♣ is difficult to determine. But any of them will be better than 4♠.

Obviously, it would be nice if one could determine with certainly how to get to 6♣. But it is really just a guess.

Edit: I didn't notice that you said that you played good/bad 2NT. In my opinion (and as one who does not play good/bad 2NT), I think that the South hand is too good for a 3♣ bid over 2♦. So I agree with the 3♦ call. While this certainly shows a very strong hand, I don't think it helps you find 6♣.

[helene_t]

It would be nice if South could reasons that he already denied 3-card heart support by not giving a support double, in that case he could bid 4♥ after 3♠. But I am afraid that 3♦ could also be based on a strong hand with 4-card heart support.

I am not sure if 4♠ can be natural here since South would have bid 2♠ with four spades. It is hard to construct a hand with which North would offer to play 4♠ in a 4-3 fit after first having bid 3♦. Anyway, 4♠ creates unnecessary confusion.

So it is probably best if South bids 4♦ instead of 4♠. North will bid 4♥ then and you will stop there.

Even if 3♦ shows a one-suiter I think it will be difficult to reach 6♣.

[nige1]

humilities, on 2013-July-16, 08:09, said:

Questions;
- South's second bid is awkward. If he doubles (feels more natural) can he later talk his partner out of hearts?
- If South bids 4C over 3S, what should North do?
- Is there an intelligent way to get to 6C?
- Is South's 4S bid justifiable at matchpoints?
Our agreements:
- We play support doubles ... 99% of hands with 3card support make a support X.
- We have not discussed if you can get out of a support X (meaning make a later bid indicating that you really didn't have 3cd support).
- Our general rule is that in competition cue bids force game and almost all other bids are passable.
- We play good/bad 2NT on this auction but the good (direct 3C) is still passable by a minimum responder.
Special thanks to anyone that is helpful enough (or bored at work enough) to read all of the above

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Perhaps on a lucky day ...
Over 2♦, South might prefer 2♠ (hoping for ♣ preference) to 3♦.
Over 3♠, South might prefer 4♥ (having already denied 3-card ♥ support) to 4♠. Then an imaginative North might bid 5♣...

[JLOGIC]

4H is a dangerous bid unless specifically discussed that 3D denies four hearts, I would guess most people include power 4H bid hands as a possibility for 3D as well as GF club hands and 18-19 bal no stopper and 2 hearts.

That said, I agree 4C seems pretty obvious over 3S, clarify what kind of hand you have to your partner. Slam will still probably be unreachable, but I would blame peoples fear of opening 2C on that. This hand is pretty simple after p 2C p 2H lol.

[Codo]

- South's second bid is awkward. If he doubles (feels more natural) can he later talk his partner out of hearts?
- If South bids 4C over 3S, what should North do?
- Is there an intelligent way to get to 6C?
- Is South's 4S bid justifiable at matchpoints?

1. No, you play support doubles to show your heart length. You may tell partner that Q2 looks asa a three card support, but you cannot cancel the message.
2. Good question. 4 ♥ looks natural enough to show 5 good ones.
3. I don't have one... after you erred with 1 club.
4. Mps is tricky, if 4 spades makes, you need to make 12 tricks in 5 clubs to compensate. Over 4 ♣ I would be more or less endplayed to play in clubs, or pass 4 in a major without really knowing a lot about partners hand- good luck that he has a passed hand at least....

In the given auction,
I would like to have a satisfying bid over 3 spades, but I do not see one. Will partner with say QTxx, KJxx ,Qxx,Jx really bid 4 Spades with confidence if I try 4 Heart? I am strongly in doubt- maybe he should, but... Will he bid 4 Spades with that hand over 4 clubs? Surely not...Would I like to play 4 Spades at mps? Yes I would, too many good things can happen...

.

[benlessard]

I usually hate opening 2C when the alternative is 1C, but here I like 2C. Partner can have very crappy hands and game will still be pretty good. Another slight plus for 2C is there is no good rebid after 1C--1S--??

After the 1C opener I play that 3D denies 3-4 hearts, but I of course dont like the 4S bid because it look like a 18-19 4234

[aguahombre]

O.K. for the minority report:

Given your agreements about support doubles and about 3D being game-forcing, 3♠ was a punt and I like it. You did not bid 2S over 2D; you don't have 4 spades. In that context, I like your 4♠ bid as well. You are on your way to a Club slam by inference, and partner's pass of 4S would be a joke. These meanings of 3S and 4S might not have been the meanings intended by you two, but that's what would be the case for my better half and myself.

1C-1H (2D)
3D-3S..Bluhmer, LT, whatever you want to call it.
4S-5H (where you live --4S didn't commit to slam, but Responder should be willing now.)
6C-P

But, I will admit that if I accidentally opened 2C with that, the auction would be a lot shorter. with 2/3 tops for a 2H response, we are already at 12 tricks in clubs.

[Zelandakh]

Q1: No, double shows 3 hearts.
Q2: Hard to see a good alternative to 4♥.
Q3: Well you could try opening 2♣. Having opened 1♣ it is difficult. What would 2NT (over 2♦) followed by 3♦, 4♣ or 4♦ show for you? Presumably at least one of these shows a super-max one-suited hand?
Q4: No, notwithstanding agua's auction, it has to be wrong to bid ♣AKQxxxx the same as ♣KQxx. If you want partner to make intelligent decisions then you have to show them your hand type at some stage.

[iviehoff]

You ask for an intelligent auction to get to 6C, but what about an unintelligent one? I can't see any intelligent auction in which partner tells me what I need to know. But if I just blast straight to 5C as my rebid (overcall or no) with his HAK and CJ he might well guess to raise to 6.

Of course, like the 2C auction that works out perfectly on this occasion, it is a results-merchant argument, and whether it's a good idea in the long run to bid like that is another matter.

[aguahombre]

There is a difference between being a results merchant and merely observing that it would work. If a person decided to open 2C, it would only be because he decided the Club suit was 7 tricks. Once he decided that (questionable), it would be silly not to keep riding the horse he chose.

It is a tad short of our choice for a 2C opener with a long minor, so we would be in the complicated auction sequence following 1C.

[rhm]

helene_t, on 2013-July-16, 08:21, said:

I am not sure if 4♠ can be natural here since South would have bid 2♠ with four spades. It is hard to construct a hand with which North would offer to play 4♠ in a 4-3 fit after first having bid 3♦. Anyway, 4♠ creates unnecessary confusion.

If 3♦ denies four spades, why does North with ♠9xxx bid 3♠ in a strong constructive sequence and if North does bid 3♠ when South has already denied four spades why should South not raise with ♠AKx?
Granted that 4♣ describes the nature of South hand better, but apart from that the 4♠ bid is entirely logical.
The principle here is very simple: Do not bid bad suits on good hands, a recipe for disaster.
Why not rebid 3♥ over 3♦ with the North hand and show where you live?

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

rhm, on 2013-July-18, 06:15, said:

Why not rebid 3♥ over 3♦ with the North hand and show where you live?

Rainer Herrmann

Because Partner has denied 3 of them and you don't have six --hence the 3S punt. Showing where you live should come on the next round, IMO.

[benlessard]

Did south denies 4S ? Should you bid 2S with a 4234 ?

Im not saying it doesnt make sense however I would expect it to be non standard practice. IMO 3D only show 2 things, running clubs or big bal, both without D stoppers.

[aguahombre]

benlessard, on 2013-July-18, 10:15, said:

Did south denies 4S ? Should you bid 2S with a 4234 ?

Im not saying it doesnt make sense however I would expect it to be non standard practice. IMO 3D only show 2 things, running clubs or big bal, both without D stoppers.

Or open some number of NT. With an in-between NT, and the unexpected Diamond butt-in, there would be a problem playing support doubles, and I guess Opener would have issues. But, I think 2S would be the least bad rebid in that case with 4-2-3-4 and 18/19. So, yes South should not have four spades and should not play North for catering to his having four spades.

We happen to not have the Support double inferences and could have doubled with the 4-2-3-4 18/19, but that isn't helpful for the majority who play those things. In our case, 3D could include 3-card heart support (Maybe 4-3-2-4) or the club mountain. I would not like the South 4S bid at all with our style.