[eagles123]

---

Who is to blame for missing game, should South be raising 3 to 4 or should north bid 4 directly?

I suspect it's a case of both as bad as each other but grateful for any opinions

Thanks

Eagles


edit: matchpoints, Red/White

[wank]

it's north. once south responds at the 2-level he should drive game.

south has no fit for hearts (a doubleton would be fine opposite a jump rebid) and as much high card strength as he's already shown, so he has no reason to bid again.

[manudude03]

100% south for passing a forcing bid. South should probably bid 4H, but either way, you will get to 4H or 5C.

[eagles123]

 manudude03, on 2013-July-08, 08:19, said:

100% south for passing a forcing bid. South should probably bid 4H, but either way, you will get to 4H or 5C.

3H forcing?

[ArtK78]

I don't know if 3♥ is forcing, but it is certainly strongly encouraging. Generally speaking, nothing is forcing on a passed hand except for a cue bid or a jump shift/reverse. I would bet that a 3♣ rebid by North would be forcing, as something has to be forcing here. But we don't have to get fancy here.

I give 100% to both players.

Can South have enough as a passed hand to make a slam reasonable? He would almost have to have A AK in some order, and one of the aces would have to be in spades. Even that might not be enough. If South had A AK in the pointed suits, there would be no pointed suit losers, but there could be a slow second club loser (in addition to the ace). How would you like playing 6♥ opposite Axx xx AKxxx xxx on a spade lead? Besides, if South had that much along with a diamond suit good enough to make a passed hand 2/1, he would have opened the bidding. So, North should just bid game.

As for South, he should certainly raise to game holding 2 aces. South could have a far less useful hand on which he might have opened the bidding - such as Qx x KQxxx KQxxx. If I held that hand and heard partner open 1♥ and rebid 3♥ over my passed hand 2♦ bid (assuming that I didn't open the bidding, which is a BIG assumption), I would have some very serious misgivings about raising to 4♥. But with two aces, there is no doubt whatsoever about raising to 4♥.

[Cyberyeti]

 eagles123, on 2013-July-08, 08:21, said:

3H forcing?

Usually yes, if it isn't, N has to bid 3♣ which is.

[aguahombre]

When a 2/1 response is not forcing to game ---either by original system design or (here) because responder is a passed hand ---the bid still shows invitational range values, and Opener must be able to commit to game without unilaterally blasting to a final strain/level.

3H should absolutely be forcing upon a 2/1 response. Obviously, opposite this partner North had to blast. He shouldn't have had to.

[PhilKing]

3♥ is forcing even when taught in the land of Acol.

[eagles123]

makes sense 3H being forcing now... I was the offending south (I'm always either South or East btw ) dont have a bad record overall given I only been playing live club duplicate for a few months but still many gaps in the knowledge hence posting on here... practice makes perfect I hope

Cheers

Eagles

[aguahombre]

And, if your attitude at the table is similar to that of your posts, you can expect better and better results in the future.

[eagles123]

 aguahombre, on 2013-July-08, 09:22, said:

And, if your attitude at the table is similar to that of your posts, you can expect better and better results in the future.

Thanks, I always take the advice I receive on here on board you won't find me passing 3H again in that situation!!!

[helene_t]

yes, 3H is forcing . there is.a simple rule you can use: the fact that south is a passed hand only influences.the forcing character of south's own bids.

[SimonFa]

 helene_t, on 2013-July-08, 11:05, said:

yes, 3H is forcing . there is.a simple rule you can use: the fact that south is a passed hand only influences.the forcing character of south's own bids.

How do you invite game in hearts then?

If we assume 2D shows 10+ - 12 HCP but doesn't deny 3Hs and with, say, a good 13 HCP or poor 14 HCP don't we want to be able to invite?

I would take 3H here to be a good 6-card suit or possible a solid 5-carder that could stand a 4-2 break and invite. 3 clubs would be forcing (new suit at new level is always forcing was something I thought was taught to all beginners) and a rebid of Hs then promising a good 6-card Heart suit and probably 4 clubs. I think it was a Marty Bergman piece when he said you should always strive to bid your 6-4 shape, but that may have been in a 2/1 context.

[Cyberyeti]

 SimonFa, on 2013-July-09, 05:13, said:

How do you invite game in hearts then?

If we assume 2D shows 10+ - 12 HCP but doesn't deny 3Hs and with, say, a good 13 HCP or poor 14 HCP don't we want to be able to invite?

I would take 3H here to be a good 6-card suit or possible a solid 5-carder that could stand a 4-2 break and invite. 3 clubs would be forcing (new suit at new level is always forcing was something I thought was taught to all beginners) and a rebid of Hs then promising a good 6-card Heart suit and probably 4 clubs. I think it was a Marty Bergman piece when he said you should always strive to bid your 6-4 shape, but that may have been in a 2/1 context.

Partner doesn't have to pass a 2♥ rebid, you simply have to bid again if you'd have accepted that sort of invite.

We actually do play 3♥ NF, but this is non standard because in our version of weak NT Acol we play 1♥-2♦-2N as GF and not necessarily balanced so bidding 3♥ via 2N is bigger.

[SimonFa]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-09, 05:41, said:

Partner doesn't have to pass a 2♥ rebid, you simply have to bid again if you'd have accepted that sort of invite.

We actually do play 3♥ NF, but this is non standard because in our version of weak NT Acol we play 1♥-2♦-2N as GF and not necessarily balanced so bidding 3♥ via 2N is bigger.

So in the sequence 1H 2D 2H 3H, 3H says I have 3 card support and 11+ or 12 HCP? Makes sense in Acol where 1H could be a 4-card suit. I was thinking SAYC in my earlier comment.


Thanks,

Simon

[helene_t]

In SAYC even
pass-1♥
2♦-2♥*
is forcing.

If you open in 3rd seat and really don't want to be at the 3-level you either open 2♥, or you pass the 2♦ response.

In Acol and in some old-fashioned SA styles,
1♥-2♦
2♥*
is non-forcing.

If you play 2/1, obviously
pass-1♥
2♦*
cannot have the same forcing character as by an unpassed hand. Therefore, many 2/1 pairs play 2♦ as some sort of 2-way Drury. But if you play it is natural, probably it means that you play SAYC after a 3rd/4th seat opening while you play 2/1 after a 1st/2nd seat opening.

[Cyberyeti]

 SimonFa, on 2013-July-09, 05:51, said:

So in the sequence 1H 2D 2H 3H, 3H says I have 3 card support and 11+ or 12 HCP? Makes sense in Acol where 1H could be a 4-card suit. I was thinking SAYC in my earlier comment.

Thanks,

Simon

Most people playing Acol would have opened pretty much all 12s and a lot of 11s with a long diamond suit. 1♥-2♦-2♥-3♥ is suggestive of 2353 10-11. Many B/Is still play an old fashioned natural balanced 2N which they'd use if the spade holding was up to it 3253. Remember 1♥ in weak no trump Acol is either 5♥ or 15+ (OK, other people may open 1♥ on some 4441s, we don't) so raising on 3 is not uncommon for a lot of people anyway, and certainly with a 2/1 partner always has game values or 5+♥.

[ArtK78]

 SimonFa, on 2013-July-09, 05:51, said:

So in the sequence 1H 2D 2H 3H, 3H says I have 3 card support and 11+ or 12 HCP? Makes sense in Acol where 1H could be a 4-card suit. I was thinking SAYC in my earlier comment.


Thanks,

Simon

Let's get back to the original post. Note that we are dealing with passed hand bidding here.

In the first summer that I was playing duplicate bridge - 1973 - I was partnered with the wife of a husband and wife pair that ran a duplicate game out of their home once a week. They were experienced players. We were playing very basic 5 card majors Standard American. We had this auction:

1♥ - 2♦
2NT - 3♥
4♥

I was very happy with the sequence. I had an 11 count with 5 diamonds and 3 hearts. When I put down the dummy, I announced that I surely got the bidding right on this hand.

My partner said no, you didn't. She pointed out that I was a passed hand and that my 2♦ bid was not forcing. Since I wanted to play in hearts, I had to make a limit raise directly.

The point is that one must always be aware of the passed hand aspect of the bidding. It changes things. On the hand in the OP, I have to admit that it makes sense for the 3♥ rebid to be forcing opposite a passed hand. Otherwise, the bidding becomes very difficult.

[SimonFa]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-09, 07:26, said:

Remember 1♥ in weak no trump Acol is either 5♥ or 15+ so raising on 3 is not uncommon for a lot of people anyway ....

Of course, I had forgotten as I don't play much Acol.

Anyway, thanks everyone. It looks like I need to go back to basics rather than looking at some of the more advanced stuff


Simon