[barsikb]

Dealer: West Vul: Both

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If East opened with 2♥, is there a way for N/S to go to ♠ cotract/ reach ♠ game?

[barsikb]

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[billw55]

Non vul, if feeling aggressive south might double, intending to pull 3♣ to 3♦. The two passes followed by a weak two tells south quite a lot; he can infer fair values with both west and north. Still, not sure we will reach 4♠ even finding the fit.

[PhilKing]

2♥-x-Pass-3♠
All Pass

If playing Lebensohl, North bids 2NT followed by 3♠ to show specifically four spades with a direct jump showing five.

South "must" double, 2♥, despite the non-classic shape. You will get eaten alive if you do not come in with hands as promising as this.

[mikl_plkcc]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-20, 07:23, said:

2♥-x-Pass-3♠
All Pass

If playing Lebensohl, North bids 2NT followed by 3♠ to show specifically four spades with a direct jump showing five.

South "must" double, 2♥, despite the non-classic shape. You will get eaten alive if you do not come in with hands as promising as this.

Are you kidding? If North bid 3♣, you are ****ed.

[Cyberyeti]

mikl_plkcc, on 2013-May-20, 23:23, said:

Are you kidding? If North bid 3♣, you are ****ed.

If as many people do, you play lebensohl over the takeout double, you have no sensible bid over 2N, as 3♣ may well be passed, but 3♦ shows mega extras, over 3♣ you can bid 3♦.

[squealydan]

mikl_plkcc, on 2013-May-20, 23:23, said:

Are you kidding? If North bid 3♣, you are ****ed.

I probably wouldn't double with south's hand, but it's close. As you say, 3C is unlikely to be a great contract, but partner will usually have five for the bid so it may not be a disaster.

As to the OP's question, partner is a passed hand and I have a nice but hardly exceptional 12-count, so I wouldn't expect to get to game in any auction really, even if RHO didn't open an annoying 2♥.

However, scoring up -110 is not going to be great, so it certainly pays to get involved. If south feels unable to balance due to the doubleton club, then north in balancing seat can "borrow a king" and double. I still don't think we'll get to game...

[the hog]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-20, 07:23, said:

2♥-x-Pass-3♠
All Pass

If playing Lebensohl, North bids 2NT followed by 3♠ to show specifically four spades with a direct jump showing five.

South "must" double, 2♥, despite the non-classic shape. You will get eaten alive if you do not come in with hands as promising as this.

I agree totally with this. Doubling 2H is not aggressive, but normal.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I am not sure, I would make the T/O with the South
hand.
Doubling is not bad / uncommon, but you need to know,
what to do, if North responds with Clubs.

As it is, N/S should still be ok, if South passes,
since North should reopen the bidding, if 2H comes around
to him.
He should do it, if the opening bid would have been 1H,
and there is no reason, why he should not do it after 2H.

After a double, you will reach a spade contract, if South
does it, North will invite, South may or may not accept the
invite.
Given that 4S is basically on the marked spade finesse, you
want to be there, but being green makes missing game easyier.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Vampyr]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-20, 07:23, said:

If playing Lebensohl, North bids 2NT followed by 3♠ to show specifically four spades with a direct jump showing five.

I like this. I think that it is more common for the direct jump to be forcing and the slow way invitational, both with 4+.

Not sure, in any case, that discussing Lebensohl is appropriate in this forum, although it is often the least experienced players who are the most convention-mad.

[vitorlopes]

Definitely a takeout double. North should give priority to ♠ and, since he has 9-11 HCP, should jump to 3♠. Reaching game is not easy though since South is minimum but a good ♦ suit and the vulnerable bonus should make you optimistic.

[mycroft]

North doubles, if West doesn't raise. Does East open 5-card suits that frequently all white at third?

I'm guessing the spade players are less happy if the ten doesn't come down pinned, especially if the diamonds don't break to repeat the finesse through KTxx.

[mikl_plkcc]

If West does not raise, North makes a balancing double, and the result is ♦.

I have learnt from the very beginning that a takeout double shows all three remaining suits, not two. Although the minor is relatively less important, you still need three to make a takeout double.

[PhilKing]

mikl_plkcc, on 2013-May-20, 23:23, said:

Are you kidding? If North bid 3♣, you are ****ed.

If.

I remove 3♣ (or 2NT) to 3♦ NF. There will be many who argue that this is a matter of style, but hands like this show why it is a good idea to play ELC as not promising extras.

Even playing that 3♦ shows extra, double and pass 3♣ is not the end of the world. There are many good things that could happen - partner does not always bid clubs.

mikl_plkcc, on 2013-May-23, 07:57, said:

If West does not raise, North makes a balancing double, and the result is ♦.

Try switching the West and North hands. Now North would not protect, but our double gets us to Two Spades.

mikl_plkcc, on 2013-May-23, 07:57, said:

I have learnt from the very beginning that a takeout double shows all three remaining suits, not two. Although the minor is relatively less important, you still need three to make a takeout double.

The fact that you learnt this as a beginner does not make it correct.

[Codo]

I would not double with the south hand.
Yes it is a matter of style, but Phils style will reach many good spots, but he surely knows the downsides too.
I like to have a good hand for 3 ♦ over partners possible 2 NT.


North has an easy double of 2 ♥ pass pass, it is much trickier if west raises.

Anyway, whoever will double, I would never reach 4 Spades.

The hands fit quite well, the spade finesse is working, the ten of spades shows up quite earl and you hold the eight and nine of spades. There are no early ruffs and partner holds the honours you need in the minors.
Sometimes you make overtricks if you reach the right contract.

[PhilKing]

Codo, on 2013-May-23, 11:58, said:

I would not double with the south hand.
Yes it is a matter of style, but Phils style will reach many good spots, but he surely knows the downsides too.
I like to have a good hand for 3 ♦ over partners possible 2 NT.

[Board "46"]
[West "~~M6383o9v"]
[North "philking"]
[East "~~M88841bw"]
[South "cameron_1"]
[Dealer "W"]
[Vulnerable "All"]
[Deal "W:4.Q4.632.KQ98532 ♠AJ83.♥KT872.♦AQ.♣74 9762.AJ93.K95.J6 ♠KQT5.♥65.♦JT874.♣AT"]
[Auction "W"]
3C =1= X Pass 4C
Pass 4H Pass 4S
AP

Here is one in a similar sequence I had the other day (practice bidding session) against the dreaded GIB bots.

If you can't double on the North hand, it is not so easy.

[MrAce]

I definetely dbl with south hand. I do not blame anyone for choosing pass.

Philking has written so many valuable things in this thread, that i would suggest everyone to pay attention, instead of blindly disagreeing.

He also knows dbl of 2♥ suggests 3 unbid suits, but he knows a lot more than just that.

[akwoo]

If you play Lebensohl, I think double with south is fine.

If you do NOT play Lebensohl, I think you should agree that South is not strong enough for a t/o double, but North comes in with a balancing (t/o) double even on many 10 hcp hands. Here is the reason. Not playing Lebensohl, North needs to distinguish between xxx xx xxx Qxxxx and Axx xx xxx AQxxx when partner makes a t/o double, and the reasonable way to make that distinction without Lebensohl is to jump on the latter. This is not so safe when partner doubles on good 12 hcp hands.

When you go from being able to distinguish between 3 levels of strength A, B, and C to having only the ability to distinguish 2 levels, it usually is best not to just group A and B together but rather to split B somewhere in the middle and put some of those hands with A and some with C. Of course this has follow-on effects on the rest of your system, but it's usually best to adjust a little everywhere rather than putting all the strain in one place.

[barsikb]

If South doubled/passed would you in West's seat raise partner's hearts?

Thank you for the answers. I would greatly appreciate a link to the best source on Internet to learn about Lebensohl in this bidding sequence.

[Zelandakh]

barsikb, on 2013-June-12, 08:25, said:

If South doubled/passed would you in West's seat raise partner's hearts?

Absolutely.

barsikb, on 2013-June-12, 08:25, said:

Thank you for the answers. I would greatly appreciate a link to the best source on Internet to learn about Lebensohl in this bidding sequence.

Here is a recent BBF discussion. There are many variants around so providing a definitive resource is difficult. Crucial is to decide what the sequences 2NT - 3♣ - cue and 2NT - 3♣ - 3NT mean, as well as a direct cue and a direct 3NT over the double.