[eagles123]

It's an ACOL table so 4 card suits to open and the bidding goes P - P - 1♣ and you are in 4th seat holding:

♠KT
♥AQJ3
♦AKQJ5
♣Q9


My first bid is dbl which I presume is kinda standard with this monster hand, please feel free to say if not

opps pass and P responds 1♠

what next? at the table I took a punt on 2NT which partner raised to 3 which went one down.

Thanks

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

X is pretty normal, 2N is possible as a rebid but I don't like the club stop.

The question to ask is what is the upper limit to your simple overcalls.

If it's 19 or so then X followed by 2♦ is reasonable, if your limit is more like 16 then you may need to do something more drastic.

[Codo]

X is easy.
With Qx in their suit it very often pays to bid NT. But here, there is no need to rush to 3 NT. Bid 2 ♣ and ask for a stopper and try to show you partial stopper later.

[eagles123]

Codo, on 2013-March-22, 06:54, said:

X is easy.
With Qx in their suit it very often pays to bid NT. But here, there is no need to rush to 3 NT. Bid 2 ♣ and ask for a stopper and try to show you partial stopper later.

would 2♣ not be raise in spades?

[Codo]

I do not know, maybe maybe it is for most. But do you have a reaoson why it should be?

[TylerE]

IMO, X is obvious, but on my 2nd turn I'd bid 3♣, asking for a ♣ stop. Assuming partner bids something besides 3N, I will introduce the diamonds, except over 4♠. If parter bids 4♠ over 4♦ I'll respect that.... KT is far from the worst trump support I've ever put down.

[helene_t]

2♣ is ok but I think that if partner passes 2♦ we probably don't have game.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2013-March-22, 08:13, said:

2♣ is ok but I think that if partner passes 2♦ we probably don't have game.

The danger hand is something like ♠QJ9xx and out.

[PhilKing]

eagles123, on 2013-March-22, 07:30, said:

would 2♣ not be raise in spades?

No - with 4♠ you just raise spades to the appropriate level. The prototype textbook hand for cue bidding 2♣ is something like a 3442 shape with 19+ points, but can include other shapes if you are really strong. What you are essentially saying is "we may have enough points for game, but I don't know where". It does not promise another bid. You can cue bid with four spades with some absolute monsters, but you then support spades strongly later.

You should generally prefer the natural bid if one is available, so here the choice is between 2♦ and and 2♣, intending to follow with 3♦ to show the monster. 2♦ should show about 18-21 points so we are a little bit heavy, but 2♣ will lead to problems when partner has a very weak hand, since he will generally just bid 2♠, expecting us to have three.

2♦ will occasionally lead to a missed game, but it would be my choice.

[nige1]

eagles123, on 2013-March-21, 18:03, said:

It's an ACOL table so 4 card suits to open and the bidding goes P - P - 1♣ and you are in 4th seat holding:
♠ K T ♥ A Q J 3 ♦ A K Q J 5 ♣ Q 9
My first bid is dbl which I presume is kinda standard with this monster hand, please feel free to say if not opps pass and P responds 1♠ what next? at the table I took a punt on 2NT which partner raised to 3 which went one down.

(_P) _P (1♣) X
(_P) 1♠ (_P) ??
Here are some slightly less orthodox ideas about possible agreements here (so adopt them at your peril)

• 1N = Flat with ♣ stop. 18-20 (An immediate 1N overcall would have shown 15-17).
• 2♣ (cue-bid) = Artificial one-round force
• 2♦/2♥ (new suit) = Natural, Good suit, Rarely passed.
• 2♠/3♠/4♠ (raises)= Most play these as natural and strong but IMO you should agree to play them as just pre-emptive. (With a strong hand you can cue 2♣ then raise ♠ to an appropriate level)
• 2N = Flat with ♣ stop. 20-22.
• 3♣ (jump-cue) = Splinter. Good ♠ raise with a ♣ singleton or void.
• 3♦/3♥ (jump shifts) = Most play these as Natural good suit and forcing but IMO you should agree that they also promise three-card support for partner's suit.

On the actual hand, IMO, your 2N bid was a reasonable gamble although 2♣ is also attractive. You might prefer either to 2♦ to make sure you don't miss a ♥ fit.

[Zelandakh]

nige1, on 2013-April-08, 14:03, said:

(_P) _P (1♣) X
(_P) 1♠ (_P) ??

• 2♠/3♠/4♠ (raises)= Most play these as natural and strong but IMO you should agree to play them as just pre-emptive. (With a strong hand you can cue 2♣ then raise ♠ to an appropriate level)

I understand the sentiment but take a look back at the specific auction here a moment. RHO has opened 1♣ third seat and then passed at the 1 level; LHO has passed twice. Who do we think we are preempting? You are also free to play a cue followed by support as a different hand type from direct support, perhaps 3 card support for example, or just to split out hands with slam interest from those that only want to bid game. That said, there is a good case for the direct single raise after a takeout double to be preemptive since we will often have an 8 card fit and want to compete to that level. Having the higher raises as preemptive seems somewhat less useful.

[nige1]

Zelandakh, on 2013-April-09, 02:00, said:

I understand the sentiment but take a look back at the specific auction here a moment. RHO has opened 1♣ thirs seat and then passed at the 1 level; LHO has passed twice. Who do we think we are preempting? You are also free to play a cue followed by support as a different hand type from direct support, perhaps 3 card support for example, or just to split out hands with slam interest from those that only want to bid game. That said, there is a good case for the direct single raise after a takeout double to be preemptive since we will often have an 8 card fit and want to compete to that level. Having the higher raises as preemptive seems somewhat less useful.

Excellent point Zelandakh. Advanced players should take such considerations into account but.consistency can be an aide-memoire for us non-experts: IMO it helps if you agree to play direct raises as pre-emptive, not just in this auction, but in almost every competitive auction; whereas you agree to preface almost all constructive raises with a cue-bid.

[rmnka447]

A Dbl followed by cue bidding the openner's suit shows about the equivalent of what you would bid with a strong and artificial 2 ♣ opener if the opponents had passed.

In years very long gone, a direct cue bid was used for that purpose. But since Michaels has become the preferred use for a direct cue, doubling and then cue bidding has become the standard way to show that hand.

In this hand, a 2 ♣ rebid forces partner to bid again and gives partner a further chance to describe his/her hand. This may be crucial to finding a good spot to play the hand. Even though partner partner is limited to about 0-7 points, it doesn't that partner is necessarily bereft of any values.

Say partner has something like ♠ Qxxx ♥ Kx ♦ xxx ♣ J10xx. Partner would normally respond 1 ♠ to a takeout double so not to lose a 4-4 spade fit if one existed. After being forced to bid again and knowing you had a big hand, partner would bid 1 NT to show the ♣ stopper and maximum values. Now it becomes easy for you to bid the NT game.

Likewise, with a relatively poor hand, partner might choose to bid the higher ranking of two 4 card suits. This will allow both suits to be shown without potentially forcing doubler to preference back to the first suit 1 level higher. So with ♠ Jxxx ♥ Kxxx ♦ xx ♣ xxx, partner would bid 1 ♠ and then if forced to bid again could show the ♥ suit. Opener can then choice between the majors without being forced to bid 1 level higher.