[CamHenry]

---

As you can see, 6♥ is pretty much no-play: but if either hand has another club, or if the ♣K is in another suit, or whatever, slam becomes a reasonable contract. Though I'm not very keen on the jump to Blackwood, it seems that any slam try risks getting here on this layout.

How should we (a) stay out of slam on this layout and (b) find slam when N has 2=3=4=4 shape, for example? (Or when S has 3=6=2=2 instead of 2=6=2=3)?

[fromageGB]

I don't think you can cater to find a 3-2 distribution in 2 side suits. However, the hands do not excite me enough to go slamming. With my partner we would bid 1♥ 2♠ (the "2M+1" equivalent of your 2NT, GF 4 card support) 2NT (no shortages) 3♠ (no shortages either, minimum hand - the "3M+1" non-serious 3NT) 4♥. I would think the majority of balanced 12-14 hcp responder hands would not give good slam prospects.

[Fluffy]

If you move ♣K to another suit slam is still nearly hopeless.

15 balanced vs 11 balanced (I read it as invitational), in my book says that 26 HCP play game and fights to make it, I don't see why you would want to push any further.

Or maybe 2NT is GF?, then south should encourage bidding something that is not 4♥, and north should show minimum values jumpng to 4♥ ASAP, and again 13 balanced vs 15 balanced don't rate to make slam.


Nobody bids slams when you have exactly 12 tricks including AQx opposite KJxx, well, maybe if north starts with 2♣, but that is resulting.

[Free]

I prefer to play 4♥ making 6 on lucky layouts, rather than gambling 6♥ and going down because I couldn't find out if slam was any good.

South's hand is good, but not nearly good enough to commit to slam. There's no shortage, and the possibility of opps cashing ♦AK or ♠AK is real. These hands don't match well. North didn't have a say in this auction, but face it, when South has a way to show extra's with a balanced hand, North will sign off because he knows chances of slam are remote.

Note:
North having a 2=3=4=4 isn't enough, he needs ♣J.
South having a 3=6=2=2 isn't enough either, he needs ♣Q.
In both situations it's impossible to show these cards, and the partner can't ask about them either.

[Phil]

It seems North should make the final decision. If the auction starts:

1♥ - 2N
3♥ - 3♠
4♣ - 4♦
5♥...

haven't we described our hand to a tee?

[PhilKing]

Phil, on 2013-March-08, 16:16, said:

It seems North should make the final decision. If the auction starts:

1♥ - 2N
3♥ - 3♠
4♣ - 4♦
5♥...

haven't we described our hand to a tee?

The South hand is a little strong to sign-off over 2NT.

[mikeh]

PhilKing, on 2013-March-08, 16:20, said:

The South hand is a little strong to sign-off over 2NT.

I suspect Phil thought, as did I initially, that 2N was a gf raise, in which case in basic J2N, 3♥ shows extras and at least willingness to investigate slam.....and his auction is indeed very precise and accurate.

Given the 2N was described as a 'good raise to 3', 4N is laughable...it is appallingly bad.

It shouldn't surprise me to keep seeing this sort of idiocy bid time and time again, but I am surprised to see it keep appearing in these forums. Haven't we had enough threads that regular readers might clue into the fact that 4N is NOT the answer to all 'how do I look for slam' problems?

As for how S should look for slam:

If 2N was accurately described as a good limit raise, the answer is he shouldn't.

If, as I suspect, the real description of 2N was a good raise to 3 or better, then he has to show a good hand in case partner also has one.

Any experienced player will no doubt have a systemic way for S to bid something other than 3 or 4♥, but trying to suggest how the auction should go is impossible without being told what methods exist.

For example, it seems possible to agree that 2N shows a hand that will never want to play 3N....if the partnership had that agreement, and I can see good reasons both ways, then 3N by S could well be used as extra values, slam interest, let's cuebid or something similar.

[PhilKing]

If N/S just play "natural" continuations over 2NT, then I would suggest 3♣ on the South hand. That's what I would have to bid in both my "client" partnerships.

[Phil]

PhilKing, on 2013-March-08, 16:20, said:

The South hand is a little strong to sign-off over 2NT.

3♥ is a signoff? What would 3♣ be?

I'm not familiar with these methods.

[PhilKing]

Phil, on 2013-March-08, 17:38, said:

3♥ is a signoff? What would 3♣ be?

I'm not familiar with these methods.

2NT was described as a good raise to 3, but we are assuming OP meant 3+.

[fromageGB]

mikeh, on 2013-March-08, 17:17, said:

Given the 2N was described as a 'good raise to 3', 4N is laughable...it is appallingly bad.

PhilKing, on 2013-March-08, 17:42, said:

2NT was described as a good raise to 3, but we are assuming OP meant 3+.

I have completely missed this post. Where does it say it is a good raise to 3?

I assumed 2NT is a GF 4 card support, and see no reason to assume otherwise. If you play any 13 count with 4 card support is a 2NT, then North is worth 13 - not a flat 3433, and prime values. At least, I wouldn't object if partner treated it as such.

I will also comment that if ending in 5♥ describes the hand to a T, then you need different descriptive methods. South should know that North is a minimumish hand with no extras, so should not go beyond 4♥. Why risk being in 5H-1 ?

[PhilKing]

fromageGB, on 2013-March-08, 18:17, said:

I have completely missed this post. Where does it say it is a good raise to 3?

Click on the highlighted bids.

[fromageGB]

PhilKing, on 2013-March-08, 18:30, said:

Click on the highlighted bids.

Hey, that's clever. Thank you, I never knew of that feature. I apologise, and please consider that comment withdrawn. I will leave it in place because there will be others in my former state of ignorance.

[PhilKing]

fromageGB, on 2013-March-09, 05:05, said:

Hey, that's clever. Thank you, I never knew of that feature. I apologise, and please consider that comment withdrawn. I will leave it in place because there will be others in my former state of ignorance.

Phil also missed it, and he has 8000 posts.

[Phil]

PhilKing, on 2013-March-09, 05:13, said:

Phil also missed it, and he has 8000 posts.

More like 17k. I'm sure I've missed plenty of details over the years especially when I assume posters use sensible and not stupid methods.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

CamHenry, on 2013-March-08, 04:53, said:

---

As you can see, 6♥ is pretty much no-play: but if either hand has another club, or if the ♣K is in another suit, or whatever, slam becomes a reasonable contract. Though I'm not very keen on the jump to Blackwood, it seems that any slam try risks getting here on this layout.

How should we (a) stay out of slam on this layout and (b) find slam when N has 2=3=4=4 shape, for example? (Or when S has 3=6=2=2 instead of 2=6=2=3)?

Wouldn't regular Jacoby send up a red flag ?
1H - Jac2NT
3NT! = no shortness, 15-17 hcp
.... - 4H ( combined 27-29 hcp, no shortness in either hand )

[Siegmund]

Once upon a time, people learned a nursery rhyme about not keycarding with two small in an unbid suit. South has TWO xx suits, and NINE other calls between 2NT and 4NT he could have made.

I would like to think most cuebidding partnerships would uncover they had all four aces before reaching 4M, and discover they were missing two kings before reaching 5M. Neither partner having a side suit to run for a discard, neither partner has any reason to continue past five.

Good ole mom-n-pop bidding is up to the task, with an auction like
1H-3H (or however you choose to get to that level in your system)
4C-4D
4H-4S
5H

With my regular partners playing sweep cues we'd have taken one more round to get there:
4C(CA, but denies SA and DA)-4D
4H-4S
4NT(denies CK)-5C(shows CK)
5H
This would have enabled us to reach six if South had AQJx clubs and a singleton in either pointed suit.

[CamHenry]

PhilKing, on 2013-March-08, 17:42, said:

2NT was described as a good raise to 3, but we are assuming OP meant 3+.

My apologies - yes, I did. Partner alerted it, and when asked (people really do ask about *every* alert around here) described it as a GF raise. I had intended to start cue-bidding on the N hand, but partner keeps forgetting there are ways to look for slam below 4NT.

(Except, of course, for Gerber: we've made the agreement "It's NEVER Gerber", but on one occasion the auction 1♥-4♣ was described as Gerber. I had to try quite hard to work out what the ethical call was afterwards!)

[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2013-March-08, 17:17, said:

Haven't we had enough threads that regular readers might clue into the fact that 4N is NOT the answer to all 'how do I look for slam' problems?

You are 100% right Mike. It is obvious that Kickback and/or Minorwood is the answer to all "how do I look for slam" problems.