[lalldonn]

Trinidad, on 2013-March-03, 10:35, said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that so far pran has been the only participant in this discussion who has observed this behavior. I am not going to worry about it until it actually occurs.

Rik

I have seen it, usually after 1NT p 3NT or something similar. As far someone picking up his bids instead of making the final pass, I see that constantly and do it myself as well.

[aguahombre]

It is frequent among inexperienced players.

[blackshoe]

If by "this behavior" you mean picking up the bidding cards before the auction is over, Sven is certainly not the only one who has seen that. I infer that you mean something else, but I don't know what.

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2013-March-03, 20:16, said:

If by "this behavior" you mean picking up the bidding cards before the auction is over, Sven is certainly not the only one who has seen that. I infer that you mean something else, but I don't know what.

I think that "this behaviour" means exactly what you suggest it does. I can say for myself that I have never seen it, and if it ever happened where I play, even socially at friends' houses, the other three players at the table would say "hang on a minute" pretty much in unision.

A number of threads in these forums seem to be about problems caused by babyish showing off: "I'm too cool to put down a pass card". Obviously it is Fonzie-level cool to not play one when two players still have a call. Or..........not.

[kevperk]

As a director, I have seen it plenty of times, with it hardly, if ever, causing a problem. Rarely do all three pick up the bids. A lot of times, the last person does, a fair amount of time, the second person does, and occasionally all three do. I AM surprised that SO many have never seen it, and surprised they think that something that causes so few problems is such a big issue. Most of the time, everyone is ok, occasionally, someone wants to bid, and the passes are put out. Every once in a while (very rarely), there is a problem. When it is, it is dealt with. I don't think it is rude, they ones that people do it against don't think it is rude. For us, it is not rude.

[aguahombre]

Certainly tolerance at the club level is a good thing, to a point. Teacher/directors have mixed concerns. While making the club games a relaxed atmosphere where new players can progress without being overwhelmed by pedantics, they also need to prepare them to play in tournaments to get all those colored points.

The practice of picking up bids before the auction is over is not a rudeness matter; it is an illegal communication issue, and they need to learn to use the bid cards the right way and not be encouraged to take shortcuts.

[GreenMan]

At a sectional this weekend at least one player picked up her bid cards several times in next-to-last seat, but each time it was after a mundane 1NT-3NT auction or similar. I also noticed, with this thread in mind, that she looked to her left to see if the passout seat actually passed. I found it quite unremarkable. I never saw anyone do it in a competitive auction where the final contract was in doubt before the final pass.

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on 2013-March-03, 22:38, said:

Certainly tolerance at the club level is a good thing, to a point. Teacher/directors have mixed concerns. While making the club games a relaxed atmosphere where new players can progress without being overwhelmed by pedantics, they also need to prepare them to play in tournaments to get all those colored points.

The practice of picking up bids before the auction is over is not a rudeness matter; it is an illegal communication issue, and they need to learn to use the bid cards the right way and not be encouraged to take shortcuts.

This is why this particular infraction is especially serious in a club game. Less experienced opponents who are not tournament players will not know whether they have been damaged by the failure of the person in the passout seat to take action of some kind.

[Vampyr]

kevperk, on 2013-March-03, 21:19, said:

As a director, I have seen it plenty of times, with it hardly, if ever, causing a problem. Rarely do all three pick up the bids. A lot of times, the last person does, a fair amount of time, the second person does, and occasionally all three do. I AM surprised that SO many have never seen it, and surprised they think that something that causes so few problems is such a big issue. Most of the time, everyone is ok, occasionally, someone wants to bid, and the passes are put out. Every once in a while (very rarely), there is a problem. When it is, it is dealt with. I don't think it is rude, they ones that people do it against don't think it is rude. For us, it is not rude.

But what is the purpose? Why do it or allow it?

[blackshoe]

There is no purpose. It's either laziness or, as you suggested upthread, a desire to appear "cool".

The other day, after a mundane auction which I don't remember, my partner passed what became the final bid (she put out a pass card). My RHO reached for a pass card, and looked pointedly at me. I did nothing. She slowly pulled the pass card up out of the box, still looking at me. I put out a pass card*. She dropped her card back in the box and immediately picked up the rest of her cards. I guess it's too much effort to just put out the damn card. I would love it if the ACBL changed the regulation to require bidding cards to be left out until the opening lead is faced and the dummy put down, but it'll never happen, and if it does, most ACBL players will ignore the change, and when it's pointed out complain that the regs are changed too often.

* Yes, technically I passed out of turn. Sue me.

[mycroft]

Okay, I'll correct you. Look at my previous posts. It happens all the time. It drives me nuts all the time, too. Especially see my argument that it's not *everybody*, it's the person whose first pass it is, or (usually) whose second pass it is, but (sometimes) who makes the "final bid".

It's another one in my bag of "it's not proper procedure, but everybody does it. Almost always, there's no problem. When there is, and you did the improper procedure, you will get penalized for it. If you don't like that, do it right."

[Trinidad]

blackshoe, on 2013-March-03, 20:16, said:

If by "this behavior" you mean picking up the bidding cards before the auction is over, Sven is certainly not the only one who has seen that. I infer that you mean something else, but I don't know what.

No, that is not what I mean. Pran was talking about someone making (what could be or might be or likely is going to be) the final bid (i.e. not pass) and immediately picking up his own bidding cards. An example is 1NT-Pass-Putting 3NT on the table and back in the box.

And no, I have never seen that. If it would happen at the table that I am playing at, I would not understand it as a suggestion that 3NT be passed out. I would think that the 3NT bidder pulled the wrong bid from the box and made an attempt to change it. I wouldn't expect an opening lead. I would expect a new bid or a call for the TD.

Just like every one else, I often see people picking up their bidding cards, rather than making the final pass. But that was not the topic of pran's discussion (if I understand it correctly).

Rik

[aguahombre]

blackshoe, on 2013-March-04, 00:07, said:

The other day, after a mundane auction which I don't remember, my partner passed what became the final bid (she put out a pass card). My RHO reached for a pass card, and looked pointedly at me. I did nothing. She slowly pulled the pass card up out of the box, still looking at me. I put out a pass card*. She dropped her card back in the box and immediately picked up the rest of her cards......
* Yes, technically I passed out of turn. Sue me.

This seems to be a harmless exchange between you and RHO showing you both really knew the rules. Not likely Mycroft, Vampyr, or Agua would include it in our rant.

[WellSpyder]

I played 90-odd hands at the weekend in an event of reasonable standard (everyone playing in it was a Grandmaster or nearly so), and I suspect fewer than 1 in 10 auctions ended with the final pass actually placed on table - I an just as guilty as anyone else of doing this, I'm afraid. However, on only one hand did someone try to curtail the physical placing of the bidding cards on the table at an earlier stage than this, and just as David suggested earlier I found it rude and offensive (and no, the auction did not stop at that point.....).

[aguahombre]

I don't believe deviations on the final pass are a bone of contention at all until that person in the final position wants to claim he/she thought 3 passes had preceeded and the auction was already over (and now wants to bid). There is a law to cover that situation adequately.

Tapping or picking up as the final passer doesn't irritate me, can't be illicit communication, and doesn't even strike me as an attempt to be cute or clever.

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on 2013-March-04, 10:51, said:

This seems to be a harmless exchange between you and RHO showing you both really knew the rules. Not likely Mycroft, Vampyr, or Agua would include it in our rant.

No. But it does sound pretty annoying.

[mycroft]

I wouldn't include it in my rant, but it almost never gets past step 2 there with me - they look at me with their hand in the "passcard" section of the box, I ignore it, they put out the pass card (well, usually now they grab their bids instead, but I know what they mean). Frequently it has happened that I wait for a real action to happen, and then I make a non-pass call - at which point they decide they do have to pull out a green card.

*That* is a "what's the point" thing, frustrating but useless. I will admit that I can passive-aggressive with the best of them and it works well here.

I would say that I have seen 1NT, p, 3NT-and-hold-on-to-the-cards, if not necessarily pick them up again.

[bluejak]

pran, on 2013-March-02, 00:10, said:

But you obviously (and deliberately) ignore the premises for my note:

I didn't.

pran, on 2013-March-03, 05:06, said:

So attempting to curtail the auction when it appears obvious to everybody that three passes will follow makes the game not bridge?

True. It is telling partner something illegally and thus upsetting people.



In reply to several posts which follow let me just make two general comments.

In England and places with similar regulations, picking up the bidding cards is exceptionally rude and annoying because they are not picked up at the end of the auction, merely when the opening lead is faced.

In other places I would not have any problem with the last player picking up his cards so long as he does it clearly. Nor does it matter if the penultimate one does. But it is very bad indeed when the player whose partner has a call to come does it: despite pran repeating what he said, it is cheating, and should not be permitted "because it is in a club".

[nige1]

I disagree with most of what directors have written above. The effect is "it usually does no harm to break these rules, so rather than appear pernickety, we turn a blind eye when players, in the know, break them, routinely". On the contrary, IMO:

• When rules are stupid, they should be dropped or changed.
• Until daft rules are dropped, directors should comply with them and enforce them as written.

I don't think it is up to players (or directors) to pick and choose.

[barmar]

nige1, on 2013-April-19, 18:42, said:

• When rules are stupid, they should be dropped or changed.
• Until daft rules are dropped, directors should comply with them and enforce them as written.

I don't think it is up to players (or directors) to pick and choose.

The first is true, but given that this doesn't happen as often or quickly as it should, I don't think the second follows.

In the real world, the law books are full of nonsensical laws, and they are routinely ignored. I just took a peek at www.dumblaws.com, it says there's a law in Massachusetts that says "All men must carry a rifle to church on Sunday." There's also a law that says tomatoes can't be used in the production of clam chowder (sounds like a Yankees/Red Sox rivalry thing, to outlaw Manhattan clam chowder).

Why do bad laws persist? Because if they're already being ignored or being interpreted as intended they don't cause problems, and lawmakers have more important things to do than repeal or rewrite them.