[lycier]

---

after 1d---1S:
1-you rebid 2nt? can you not promise a belanced hand? how to define 2nt with unbalance if agreed?
2-directly bid 3nt? For me,it shows a solid D suit ,18hcp with singliton in S.
3-jump to 3C? can you promise cards of suits?

Thank you very much.

[dustinst22]

 lycier, on 2013-January-17, 02:08, said:

---

after 1d---1S:
1-you rebid 2nt? can you not promise a belanced hand? how to define 2nt with unbalance if agreed?
2-directly bid 3nt? For me,it shows a solid D suit ,18hcp with singliton in S.
3-jump to 3C? can you promise cards of suits?

Thank you very much.

No, dont think you should bid 2N. Describe your shape further, I'd bid 2H. You may have a slam in a minor and bidding 2N could make it difficult to find if partner doesn't know your shape. On your next bid, bid 3C. This should show the type of hand you have.

[han]

Rebid 2H.

I think that this hand should be opened 1C. There can be hands and auctions where your rebid can be inconvenient after opening 1C with this shape, this is rarely the case when you are this strong. After 1C you have more room and you can easily find diamonds, while after 1D..2H it is really hard to find clubs.

[Codo]

I am with Han, despite the still quite common agreement to open 44 in the minors with 1♦, this is an exception.

[Lelos80te]

 han, on 2013-January-17, 02:31, said:

I think that this hand should be opened 1C...

If 4-4-4-1 use R-S, U-S (red singleton, under the singleton), B-S, M-S (black singleton, middle suit). (RonKlingerBridge.com)

1D.

[gnasher]

 Lelos80te, on 2013-January-17, 04:29, said:

If 4-4-4-1 use R-S, U-S (red singleton, under the singleton), B-S, M-S (black singleton, middle suit). (RonKlingerBridge.com)

1D.

Do you think you can refute Han's argument by quoting Klinger, out of context and without any accompanying logic?

The usual argument for opening 1♦ with a 1444 shape is that it allows you to rebid clubs without reversing. On this hand we don't intend to make a minimum rebid, so there is no benefit to opening 1♦. For the advantages of opening 1♣, see the part of Han's post that you didn't quote.

[Cyberyeti]

 gnasher, on 2013-January-17, 06:11, said:

Do you think you can refute Han's argument by quoting Klinger, out of context and without any accompanying logic?

The usual argument for opening 1♦ with a 1444 shape is that it allows you to rebid clubs without reversing. On this hand we don't intend to make a minimum rebid, so there is no benefit to opening 1♦. For the advantages of opening 1♣, see the part of Han's post that you didn't quote.

I've actually had problems getting the hand across when partner responds 1♦ to 1♣ given the other structure of our system (3♠ is a void, 2♠ a completely different hand type and the GF 2N doesn't work for 4441s) so we open 1♦, if partner bids the major we have, we bid 3N to show a 4441 with support, if he bids the major we're short in we rebid a wide range 1N.

We also like reverses to guarantee a 5th card in the suit opened without exception.

[lowerline]

 han, on 2013-January-17, 02:31, said:

Rebid 2H.

I think that this hand should be opened 1C. There can be hands and auctions where your rebid can be inconvenient after opening 1C with this shape, this is rarely the case when you are this strong. After 1C you have more room and you can easily find diamonds, while after 1D..2H it is really hard to find clubs.

It is true you can forget about a club contract after 1♦-1♠-2♥. But how likely is it to find a diamond contract after 1♣-1♠-2♥? Because of the popularity of (T-)Walsh diamonds are often skipped after a 1♣ opening...


Steven

[Codo]

Maybe you can find a heart contract over
1♣ 1 ♠ 2 ♦ 2 ♥ or 2 NT?

I found a lot of games in the fourth seat so far, it is not too problematic. Of course it is always easier if you have a fit in the first named suit.

With a 1444 I am delighted if I can find ANY fit at all, so I would save as much space as possible- so I would try 2 ♦ not 2 ♥, yes this is just one step lower, but IF partner tries to force with 4. sf, he can do that much lower...

[lycier]

Maybe open 1♣ and plan to reverse bid 2♦ is a good option,however,new problem will come out,can you promise the length of opening suit? your partner consider your hand with 5 card plus club suit at least.the problem will make more and more complicated.

For me,I prefer wolff sign off,so I would rebid 2nt, 2nt is the most descriptive bid than other ones . Sometimes it is necessary to simplify the complicated problem.

[jogs]

The real dilemma is fourth suit forcing is a lousy convention that everyone plays.
It is overused.
When the fourth bid is 2♦ or 2♣, that's is fourth suit forcing. Play
all other fourth suits as natural. That would solve many problems.
1♣-1♦, 1♥-1♠... natural.
1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♥... natural.

[Phil]

 jogs, on 2013-January-19, 23:12, said:

The real dilemma is fourth suit forcing is a lousy convention that everyone plays.
It is overused.
When the fourth bid is 2♦ or 2♣, that's is fourth suit forcing. Play
all other fourth suits as natural. That would solve many problems.
1♣-1♦, 1♥-1♠... natural.
1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♥... natural.

Jogs, your stock is really rising around here.

[q0987]

I'm a simple player and I don't play a lot of conventions, but with this hand like the 1 club opener. If partner bids 1 spade and I would reverse with 2 diamonds. Partner could have a 5 card spades suit with a 4 card heart suit. With a hand like this he can bid the hearts now.

[steve2005]

2♥ - promise 1 more ♦
2N - promise 1 more ♠
3♣ - promise 1 more ♦

all have there flaws. i pick 2N as partner will only insist on ♠ with 6, a 6-1 4♠ wont be horrible. the real problem comes if partner goes slamming.

this is a very low percent problem choose your rebid and accept the problem.

if your that concerned play a roman type 2♦ or a multi 2♦ with strong 4441's worked in

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 jogs, on 2013-January-19, 23:12, said:

The real dilemma is fourth suit forcing is a lousy convention that everyone plays.
It is overused.
When the fourth bid is 2♦ or 2♣, that's is fourth suit forcing. Play
all other fourth suits as natural. That would solve many problems.
1♣-1♦, 1♥-1♠... natural.
1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♥... natural.

Where does 4th-suit-forcing ( artificial GF ) enter into this problem ?

1C - 1S
2D (reverse) - 2H! = the more modern Lebensohl weakness bid, initiating a sign-off.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In jogs 2nd sequence ( 1D open ), is he suggesting that Opener make a NF limiting 2C rebid with OP's 19 hcp hand ??

[han]

 Phil, on 2013-January-19, 23:58, said:

Jogs, your stock is really rising around here.

Your post is upvoted twice but I don't understand it. Did you mean to say that you liked jogs' post? I didn't understand what jogs' post has to do with the posted hand, and I also didn't understand how 1D - 1S - 2C - 2H = natural could be a good treatment. Could one of you elaborate?

[helene_t]

I thought you understood sarcasm, Han

[han]

 gnasher, on 2013-January-17, 06:11, said:

Do you think you can refute Han's argument by quoting Klinger, out of context and without any accompanying logic?

The usual argument for opening 1♦ with a 1444 shape is that it allows you to rebid clubs without reversing. On this hand we don't intend to make a minimum rebid, so there is no benefit to opening 1♦. For the advantages of opening 1♣, see the part of Han's post that you didn't quote.

I like being defended by the poster of the year!

[han]

 helene_t, on 2013-January-21, 09:51, said:

I thought you understood sarcasm, Han

Ah ok, I thought that perhaps it was an expression I didn't know.

[rhm]

 gnasher, on 2013-January-17, 06:11, said:

Do you think you can refute Han's argument by quoting Klinger, out of context and without any accompanying logic?

The usual argument for opening 1♦ with a 1444 shape is that it allows you to rebid clubs without reversing. On this hand we don't intend to make a minimum rebid, so there is no benefit to opening 1♦. For the advantages of opening 1♣, see the part of Han's post that you didn't quote.

I think there are benefits.
You keep the bidding low, which is important when you want to bring all your suits into play no matter how strong you are. 4441 need delicate exploration.
I think starting with 1♦ and following with 2♣ gives you the best chance not to loose any of your suits, without showing a 5 card minor.
I believe a reverse should guarantee an anchor suit.
Roth used to argue if I can get past this round (the second round 2♣), I am well placed.
If partner passes 2♣ there is no guarantee that this is not the best contract, but I admit if he is weak and specifically 5♠=4♥=1♦=3♣ I might miss 4♥.
If partner bids 2♦ - he will often give false preference if he has not a true one - you can bid 2♥, if partner bids 2♥, which is forcing, you can bid 3♥, which is also forcing and shows your distribution.
If partner bids 2♠ I would content myself with 2NT, but 3NT is okay too.

Rainer Herrmann