[el mister]

Is it possible to play the following sequence in Acol: 1♠ - pass - 1NT - pass - 2♣ where the 2♣ bid by opener is staymanic? Asking for a 4 card ♥ suit or 3♠?

So sort of a checkback stayman bid by opener - is this playable?

[helene_t]

It is not necessary to ask explicitly for 3-card spade support since responder will always show 3-card spade support at his second turn. Actually, responder should often show the 3-card support at his first turn!

Using 2♣ to ask for a 4-card hearts has some merrits since it would mean that a 2♥ rebid shows 5. Then responder will know not to take false preference with three hearts and two spades. It would also be great to know that a 3♥ rebid by opener shows 5.

It does raise some questions, though. A 3♣ rebid by opener would presumably be to play, with strong hands rebidding 2♣ or 2/3NT? If that is the case, how can responder show five or six hearts when opener has 16-19 points with both black suits and rebids 2♣?

Presumably a 2♦ response to the 2♣ bid is just "neutral". Does it show a singleton spades? That would make some sense if opener would always have 5+ spades when using the 2♣ rebid.

Stayman is meant for inquiring about balanced hands. But here, responder can have an unbalanced hand with long clubs and/or diamonds. With, say, a 1345 shape and 7 points, responder would have passed a natural 2♣ rebid. What should he do in response to the artificial 2♣ rebid? Is 2♦ ok with only four of them? In that case, opener can rarely pass the 2♦ bid and you may come too high on some hands where standard Acol bidders would bid
1♠-1NT
2♥-pass
Alternatively, maybe responder should bid 2NT at his second turn to show 1345 or 1255 or 0355?

It is probably a good idea to use the 2♣ rebid for something artificial - lots of strong pairs do this (the convention is called "Gazilli"). Gazilli asks primarily about the strength of responder. In Acol, responder's strength is quite well defined, so it would probably make more sense to ask about shape in some way. But I am afraid it would require a lot of work to make it playable!

[P_Marlowe]

The question too ask, why not bid 2H, showing 54, instead of using what ever.

You could argue, that you want to find game, when your side has major suit fit, and
opener has 14/15, responder 8/9 ... something like this, which would be a reasonable
answer.

We currently play after 1M opening over the 1NT response transfer, that either show
4 cards in the transferred suit or some stronger hands, transferring in the opened
suit showes 6+, rebidding the major showes 4+ clubs.
Responses to the Transfer bid are the same as, if the suit got bid naturally, executing
the transfer means, you would have passed it.

The transfer bid is nonforcing, i.e. denies game going strength, hence responder can pass,
if the transfer suit is his suit.

It is simple, and seems to work ok.


With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

A better option here is transfer rebids. In that method the 2♦ rebid shows 4+ hearts and does effectively what you want to do with this 2♣. This is an established concept and (I believe) is used by a few expert pairs.

The closest I have come to a completely artificial method here was with my very first f2f partner as a junior, who insisted that a 2♣ rebid after a 1M opening asked for Opener's hcp range artificially. Having played that I would suggest it comes into the "not playable" range. This one is perhaps not quite so bad, amounting in effect to a ♥-♣ switch, but it is still not something I will be suggesting to future partners.

[el mister]

Thanks for the detailed replies.
I wasn't planning on playing it or anything, more curiosity from thinking about invitational sequences in acol, which have been problematic IME just bidding naturally. The example Marlowe gives of 14 opposite 9 being a text book example.

[campboy]

I play this method. As well as finding your heart fits it can help to distinguish opener's strength, as you have both game-forcing (direct) and invitational (via 2♣) 3-level rebids available. To lessen the cost of not having a natural 2♣ bid we open 1♣ with 5-5 in the blacks and not enough to invite after 1♠ - 1NT. The advantage over transfer rebids is that we can often investigate 3-5 heart fits too.

[jgillispie]

 el mister, on 2014-August-21, 04:29, said:

Is it possible to play the following sequence in Acol: 1♠ - pass - 1NT - pass - 2♣ where the 2♣ bid by opener is staymanic? Asking for a 4 card ♥ suit or 3♠?

So sort of a checkback stayman bid by opener - is this playable?

Sounds like this is more of a corollary to the BART convention...

[FrancesHinden]

Jallerton and I play 2C as asking for a five card heart suit. Responder usually bids 2D, of course. The advantage of the artificial bid is that opener can distinguish many more hand types whether they bid directly or via the 2C bid.

[FrancesHinden]

 helene_t, on 2014-August-21, 05:13, said:

It is probably a good idea to use the 2♣ rebid for something artificial - lots of strong pairs do this (the convention is called "Gazilli"). Gazilli asks primarily about the strength of responder. In Acol, responder's strength is quite well defined, so it would probably make more sense to ask about shape in some way. But I am afraid it would require a lot of work to make it playable!

It's true that many pairs use the 2C rebid as artificial. Gazilli is only one convention. I play 3 different versions of an artificial 2C with different partners, but none of them is Gazilli.

As you say, the ACol 1NT response is much better defined than in SA or 2/1 so you don't really need to distinguish strength and shape is indeed more useful.

[steve2005]

 FrancesHinden, on 2014-August-30, 09:06, said:

It's true that many pairs use the 2C rebid as artificial. Gazilli is only one convention. I play 3 different versions of an artificial 2C with different partners, but none of them is Gazilli.

As you say, the ACol 1NT response is much better defined than in SA or 2/1 so you don't really need to distinguish strength and shape is indeed more useful.

Also, in Acol you don't have the safe landing spot you often have in SA or 2/1 of 2M, as Acol may be a 4-card major.

[helene_t]

 steve2005, on 2014-September-24, 17:18, said:

Also, in Acol you don't have the safe landing spot you often have in SA or 2/1 of 2M, as Acol may be a 4-card major.

True. This means that with a 4-card major you either pass or bid 2NT. I suppose you could fish for 5-card hearts with a 43(24) and 17 points, though.

[mgoetze]

Reminds me of the Magister convention in Polish club, where 1♣-1M; 1NT-2♣ asks, with the answers being

2♦ minimum, no 3-card support
2M minimum, 3-card support
2OM maximum, 3-card support
2NT maximum, no 3-card support.