[benlessard]

Im looking for links to decent but not overly complex scheme for

1D--1H
2H--2S (ask or relay)

1D--1S
2S--2NT (ask or relay)

[lycier]

I would like to regard this sort of sequences as 1M---2M,and then it is better to play nagy game tries convention.
here is link:http://www.jeff-goldsmith.org/system/nagy.html

[SteveMoe]

Offering 3.

First and simplest is Bergen, resembling Ogust:
2N asks
3♣ = 3 card min
3♦ = 3 card max
3♥ = 4 card min balanced
3♠ = 4 card max balanced
3N your choice or unused; maybe 4M=333
4♣ = splinter
4♦ = splinter
4♥ = splinter in other major

Second - we call it Penrod:
2N asks
3♣ = 3 cards; 3♦ asks min/max (S1/S2).
3♦ = 4 card min balanced
3♥ = 4 card max balanced
3♠ = Hidden Void Splinter; 3N asks (♣/♦/OM = S1/S2/S3)
3N your choice or unused; maybe 4M=333 max.
4♣ = singleton splinter
4♦ = singleton splinter
4♥ = splinter in other major

Third, my favorite and closer to the OP:
Step 1 Major Raise Ask
1m -1M-2M Auctions. In context we need to show trump length (3 or 4+), strength (min or max), and shape (Balanced or unbalanced) --> 8 cases.

For ♥, trigger is 2♠:

2N = Minimum Splinter 4 card trumps; Opener's 3/4♥ to play, all else asks shortness
3♣ = Unbalanced 3-card support min or max. 3♦ asks shortness (and is GF).
3♦ = Balanced 3-card support min.
3♥ = Min Balanced 4-card support.
3N = Max Balanced 3-card support.
3♠ = Max Splinter 4+ Trump
4♣ = Max Splinter 4+ Trump
4♦ = Max Splinter 4+ Trump

For ♠, trigger is 2N:
3♣ = Unbalanced 3-card support min or max. 3D asks shortness (and is GF).
3♦ = Balanced 3-card support min.
3♥ = Minimum Splinter 4 card trumps; Opener's 3/4♠ to play, all else asks shortness
3♠ = Maximum balanced 4-card support
3N = Max Balanced 3-card support.
4♣ = Max Splinter 4+ Trump
4♦ = Max Splinter 4+ Trump
4♥ = Max Splinter 4+ Trump

[Fluffy]

First thing to know is if you allow 3 card raises from opener or not, then we can talk about later structure

[kenrexford]

Fluffy, on 2012-September-16, 02:48, said:

First thing to know is if you allow 3 card raises from opener or not, then we can talk about later structure

And, if so, when? For example, I only have 3-fit if 5431,, 4-card higher ranking than opened 5-card but lower than 3-card. 3145, 3415, 3451, or 1345. this makes rebids more precise than if freer use, but less than if never.

[SteveMoe]

Here's a 3-card raise criteria I subscribe to:
1m-1M Now What

[PhilKing]

Playing strict raises (4 trumps or unbalanced).

After 1♦-1♥-2♥-2♠:

2nt = spades - ie 4351
3c = nat - ie 1354
3d = nat 36
3h = nat min 4 trumps
3s/4c = splinter, v min opening
3NT = max weak nt 4 trumps (obviously NA if 1d denies a weakie)
4d = 2452 decent
4h = I have forgotten the resonses. Why did you make me play this system?

Bids mean what they say other than 2NT which shows a bid in the relay suit (a common theme). Similarly, bidding 2NT raither than 2 Spades shows 44M non forcing.

Oh, and play the relay as game forcing. It's much better for subsequent bidding. All other bids including 3h (GT with 5) are just invitational.

[rhm]

I raise frequently on 3 cards but will not have 4 cards in spades if I have raised hearts on 3 cards

1♦-1♥
2♥-2♠

2NT: 2♠=3♥=4♦=4♣
3♣: 3♥=5+♦=4+♣
3♦: 3♥,5+ ♦
3♥: 4♥s, minimum
3♠: 4♠=4♥=4+♦
3NT: 4♥s, maximum 3442 or 2443, suitable for 3NT
4H: 4♥s, maximum, unsuitable for 3NT

1♦-1♠
2♠-2NT

3♣: 4+♣s, 3♠s
3♦: 5+♦, 3♠s
3♥: 3♠=4♥=4♦=2♣
3♠: 4♠s, minimum
3NT: 4♠s, maximum, suitable for 3NT
4♠: 4♠s, maximum unsuitable for 3NT

The principle is simple: Bids below three of the agreed suit are natural and not forcing and show 3 card support. (We might have a better fit in a minor)

Three of the agreed shows 4 card support but minimum
Bids above three of the agreed suit show acceptance and 4 card support.
3NT is a suggestion with 4 card support.

Rainer Herrmann

[FrancesHinden]

PhilKing, on 2012-September-16, 09:30, said:

Playing strict raises (4 trumps or unbalanced).
Oh, and play the relay as game forcing. It's much better for subsequent bidding. All other bids including 3h (GT with 5) are just invitational.

I think responder should be able to pass opener's response to the relay but if he bids again it is game forcing.

[benlessard]

I think raising with 3 is totally normal even with a balanced hand. However I really dont understand raising H with 3H&4S.

1D-1H
1S-1NT
??

here you can bid 2H with a min 4351 or 2D with a min 4?6? and 2C with a INV in a red suit with paradox responses. The cost is not being able to bid 2C with a 4054 wich is almost insignificant.

1C-1H-1S-1nt
2D can show a good 4315.

[jmcw]

benlessard, on 2012-September-16, 18:35, said:

I think raising with 3 is totally normal even with a balanced hand. However I really dont understand raising H with 3H&4S.

1D-1H
1S-1NT
??

here you can bid 2H with a min 4351 or 2D with a min 4?6? and 2C with a INV in a red suit with paradox responses. The cost is not being able to bid 2C with a 4054 wich is almost insignificant.

1C-1H-1S-1nt
2D can show a good 4315.

In Steve Weinstein write up. He promotes the idea of Not bidding 1♠ unless you are prepared to pull 1NT to 2♥, which he claims should show extras. With 4324(42)12/14 rebid 2♥ or 1NT, with 4351(15) rebid 2♥ with minimum, 1♠ with extras and pull 1NT if partner bids it. Now you may understand it better now, but perhaps not agree . I'm still mulling it over!

[PhilKing]

benlessard, on 2012-September-16, 18:35, said:

The cost is not being able to bid 2C with a 4054 wich is almost insignificant.

1C-1H-1S-1nt
2D can show a good 4315.

1D-1H-1S-1NT-2C natural and 1C-1H-1S-1nt-2d natural are undoubtedly infrequent, but I would not agree they are insignificant. The gain from this treatment when it does occur is big.

[benlessard]

Good article by SW. However I dont really get the

Quote

"The main reason for that is, I don't like the opponents to know if I have 4 spades or not."

& I mostly agree with the comments by Sergey Kustarov.

I can understand the desire to bypass 1S when holding a balanced hand. The main benefit is that when its 1m--1H--1S you usually have a 4S+5m hand allowing partner to bid 2m rather than 1Nt and when you do bid 1Nt they are more blind for the lead ; often lead in your AQTx of spades or not lead spades when you dont have them. However when you do have the unbalanced hand bypassing 1S is a bit pointless imo since you do not want to play in 1NT anyway. The only thing I can see is that you avoid exposing the 4351/4342/4315/4324 pattern so they can find a killing trump lead.

But bypassing S will lead to leaking information too, with 44?? or 45?? and a non-slammish hand responder will sometimes need to ask for 4S instead of blasting to 3Nt or 4H.

1D-1H
2H-??

KQxx
Axxx
xx
KJx

It would annoy me not to be able to bid a natural 3Nt here because im afraid of missing a 44 S fit.

With 4S & 5H its even worse since if you use the 2S relay/ask your wrongsiding a possible 4S contract & leak information.
IMO the best solution is to simply blast to 4H and risk playing in a 53/54 in H rather than the 44 in S.

Quote

1D-1H-1S-1NT-2C natural and 1C-1H-1S-1nt-2d natural are undoubtedly infrequent, but I would not agree they are insignificant. The gain from this treatment when it does occur is big.

Yes but having 6m+4S and light extras is frequent too.

AJxx
x
AKQTxx
xx

1D--1H
1S--1Nt
??

Its fun to be able to bid 2C (art and forcing) showing extras and being able to stop in 2D while still be allowed to bid 2D/2H with minimums. Just this completly make me forget about the 4054 or strong 4153 hands. For those who play 1D-1H-1S-1nt-2C where 2C is natural does it show extras (my guess) or it can be minimum 4054(even 4045 maybe) shape ?

While
1C--1H
1S--1NT
2D--as natural (even non-forcing ?) seems very rare and not very profitable.