[fromageGB]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-June-05, 00:50, said:

Strangely enough I actually think the true solution to the specific problem in the OP is probably to improve your inverted minor follow-up structure to allow you to agree the minor at a lower level...

 kgr, on 2012-June-05, 09:03, said:

1♣-2♣
3NT-4♣
(1♣=2+card; 2♣ is inv min and 3NT is 13-14).
This was a specific example of when minorwood does not apply for us, and I think it is best for us to keep it like that.

The problem on this sequence is as Zel says. It seems your 3NT leaves the number of clubs unspecified, so it could still be a doubleton. There is an awful lot of space between 2♣ and 3NT. Are you sure you can't use some of that space to help, so at least by the time the bidding gets to 3NT you know whether it is a genuine club suit?

[kgr]

 fromageGB, on 2012-June-06, 12:43, said:

The problem on this sequence is as Zel says. It seems your 3NT leaves the number of clubs unspecified, so it could still be a doubleton. There is an awful lot of space between 2♣ and 3NT. Are you sure you can't use some of that space to help, so at least by the time the bidding gets to 3NT you know whether it is a genuine club suit?

1C-2C
- 2X=reverse type (extras) or stopper for 3NT
- 2NT=18-19
- 3NT-13-14
- 3C=minimum with C
- 3X=splinter; 12-14 or 18-19
3NT can be with doubleton, but also with 4cC. Often it will be short.

[rhm]

 kgr, on 2012-June-06, 10:59, said:

Because we open short ♣ (2+c) it is maybe a good idea to use 4♦ always as 'minorwood', also for ♣? That allows me to still bid 4♣ if I want to very openers ♣ length.

I think you will find playing minorwood, but making exceptions where you play kickback or redwood makes the whole concept not less complex or error prone.
I wonder why you insist that 4♣ should start a cuebidding sequence. I would do it the other way round.

If over

1♣-2♣
3NT

responder considers minorwood not appropriate, because (among others) opener's club length is relevant, why does responder not start immediate control bidding himself?
4♦, 4♥, 4♠ over 3NT can hardly be interpreted as anything but a control bid in search of a ♣ slam. Now (in my view) opener has been asked to judge his hand in light of the auction and can sign off with 4NT (or rarely 5♣), should he consider his hand not well suited for slam in clubs.

Rainer Herrmann

[Lovera]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-June-03, 23:10, said:

You could also play 4♦ as KC for clubs and 4♥ as keycard for diamonds - the agreement is it is keycard if it is a jump right after someone just bid the minor naturally, or whenever a minor has been bid and agreed. 4♥ is only not KC if the other partner bid hearts and you have had ABSOLUTELY NO OPPORTUNITY BEFORE THIS BID to give preference to hearts. Example: 1♥ (2♠) 3♣ (3♠) 4♦ (pass) 4♥. (Note 4♦ was not KC for clubs - 4♦ was not a jump and clubs haven't been bid and agreed.)

If the bidding got above the KC bid before you were ready to use it, 4NT becomes KC.

Also you can say that 4NT is to play after a KC bid. So then you have the freedom to look for a minor suit slam without giving up the ability to play in NT (esp. good for matchpoints).

Having different bids than the suit itself for KC means you can make a general slam-try-ish bid (bidding 4 of your minor) without committing to KC.

But in your example starting 1♥ and endind 4♥ 4♠(=suit of opp) is not also RKCB for heart ?

[Lovera]

I think it is possible resume so: partnership agree a minor suit enter 3th level than raising at 4th level is Minorwood; when it is not is available kickback (♦/♥ for club/diamond). The trump suit may also be estabilished inferentially by a jump being last suit bidded by partner before jumping. The point of aptention is that when a suit is bidded at four level and expecially if a new suit needs see if the suit before (as in kickback) has been bidded by partner because if not this should be a cue bid. Similarly overcall of suit of opp starts RKB.(Handle with care).

[WesleyC]

A few people have suggested that playing kickback in 4 suits is more confusing than minorwood, but having played 4 suit kickback for a couple of years now I strongly disagree.

Using clubs as an example:

A 4C bid is NEVER keycard. It is always a forward going slam try leaves room for partner to bid 4D as keycard.
A 4D bid that would be otherwise be a cuebid/splinter/slamtry in support of clubs is ALWAYS keycard.
4NT replaces the meaning of the 4D bid.

Obviously in any case where the bid might be natural, (e.g. it is your first chance to support partner's diamonds) then that takes precedence.

I've very rarely had ambiguous situations come up since i've started using this method.

[helene_t]

 kgr, on 2012-June-03, 06:33, said:

My partner and I play minorwood when the minor was agreed before.
We open short clubs, and therefor we don't play
1♣-2♣
3NT-4♣
as minorwood.

I don't think it should matter whether 1♣ initially shows 1, 2, 3 or 4 clubs. Whatever it shows, the 3nt bid takes away enough room that responder must know whether clubs is trump or not. If responder wants to cuebid instead, he can just bid 4♦ instead which must be a cuebid for clubs since clubs is the only suit in which we can have a fit.

With Gosh13 I play minorwood. 4m in minorwood whenever it would otherwise have been natural and forcing and agreeing the suit. If minorwooder is limited while p has a wide range then it is optional and partner can sign off instead of showing keycards.

It is a bit difficult to figure out when it "would otherwise have been agreeing the suit" as opposed to when it would otherwise have been a suggestion to play in that suit, but I think you would need to have that understanding anyway as you would need to know whether a subsequent bid by p is a cue or a natural bid.

[Trick13]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-June-04, 01:13, said:

If the minor is agreed at the 4 level then you can play a simple little convention that combines making a slam try with a key card ask. After 4m, the first step says that you would decline a slam try; the next 4 steps accept the slam try and show key cards according to your usual scale. If the slam try is declined then the first step over that is RKCB. So ...

After this, does 5m+1 ask for kings?

[Zelandakh]

 Trick13, on 2015-May-07, 17:25, said:

After this, does 5m+1 ask for kings?

I would suggest that simplest is to use the same procedure as for RKCB - the next non-trump step asks about the trump queen, if unknown, and the next asks for specific kings.