[Valardent]

Those are the hands :

Matchpoints

---

1♠ is 11-22 hcp 5+♠, 2♣ a GF relay
.... 3NT : 5422 10+ slam points (123 points)

At this stage(4♣ is SP ask, 4♦ terminator, 4♥, 4♠, 4NT are optionnal BW in respectively ♠, ♥ and ♣), if one decides to forget about a grand slam and focuses on ♥ quality, I can see 2 or 3 ways to put that matter in the spotlight :

As 4♦ followed by pass on 4♥ would be SO,

one could bid on 3NT :
a) 5♥
b) 4♦ followed by 5♥
c) 4♣ (if response is 4 red) followed by 5♥

What message/ask would u assess to each sequence?

(a gradation of ♥ quality only, or a mix of ♥ qual. and min/max hand, any other?)

[dake50]

Looks like your agreements hope for good news and continue up.
Little for quits/warning.
I find myself similarly placed.
Good answers gets slam, don't handle nor
evaluate quits/warning well.
Eager to hear responses to this problem.
Hope not optimists vs. pessimists, but solutions
that work hand after hand.
To elaborate.
SQ instead of S10 makes if S4-3 --62%.
Similarly, DJ instead of D10.
Even H10 for H8.
Did I see 'good' stuff with any of these?
Did slammy get these up-evaluated?

[benlessard]

This is a perfect hand for my system so i couldnt resist.

http://bridge.downag...=1CP1DP1HP2CP2D

1C-1D (strong --showing H or pts)
1H-2C (at least 3H 15-20-- D inv or H+D GF)
2D-3C (refuse a D inv--1453 GF)
3H-3S (RKC in H--1or4)
4C-5C (bypassing Q of trump and ask for Kof D-- 4 next cards, Kd+KC+QD+QC no J of H)
5D-5H (extras ?--No)
pass

[inquiry]

i;ve been in a LOT WORSE slams than 6♥ by west.

Double dummy it is probably significantly higher than 50%, single dummy, it is less than 50%. The difference being double dummy you can hook the spade queen when with long in south, you can hook south for JTx of trumps and duck completely first round when south has JTxx, etc.

I can not offer a fix for the problem with the bidding constraints given.

[straube]

benlessard, on 2012-May-19, 06:32, said:

This is a perfect hand for my system so i couldnt resist.

http://bridge.downag...=1CP1DP1HP2CP2D

1C-1D (strong --showing H or pts)
1H-2C (at least 3H 15-20-- D inv or H+D GF)
2D-3C (refuse a D inv--1453 GF)
3H-3S (RKC in H--1or4)
4C-5C (bypassing Q of trump and ask for Kof D-- 4 next cards, Kd+KC+QD+QC no J of H)
5D-5H (extras ?--No)
pass

Very nice

[akhare]

FWIW, in our system:

1♣ (1) - 1♦ (2); 1=16+ any; 2=GF
1N (3) - 2♣ (relay) ;3=Majors
3C (4) - 4♣ (5) ;4=5-4-2-2; 5=RKC ♥s
4♥ (5) - 4♠ (6) ;5=0/3; 6=Q♥ ask
5♦ (7) - ?? ; Q♥, K♠

At this point responder pretty much has to sign off in 5♥ or commit to 6. I suppose an alternative is to use 3♦ (QP ask) and then jump to 5♥ over 3♠ (11 QPs), to say ask for trump suit quality, but we haven't discussed it.

Frankly, as others have noted, it isn't an awful slam and I would expect company. On a good day, the card gods will confer the A♥ onside...

[Free]

The methods aren't good for Q-point ask followed by DNC, because:
- you already know partner's holding in ♦, so you'll lose space when partner bids the ♦-step
- opposite a minimum you're missing too many Q-points to accurately place all the honors. Even with 12 Q-points you won't know what opener holds (KQJxx-AKxx-xx-Ax or AQJxx-AQxx-xx-Ax will bid the same way as the original hand)
- the chance of opener having multiple wasted honors in ♠ is very high (we probably can't discard anything useful on them anyway)

Given the fact that partner has 10+ Q-points, so together we only have 19+ Q-points, I'd probably sign off in 4♥ at the table through terminator. I guess opener can zoom with 13+ Q-points at this stage (bidding 4♥ with 10-12 Q-points only), in which case we'll still be able to investigate a 22+ Q-point slam (in which case 6NT is probably laydown).

[Valardent]

Tx to all for the answers and non-answers.

Unfortunately, they aren't of great help and some are quite "off" the topic I was asking for, which let's me thinks this is partly due to the complexity of the problem.

[benlessard]

Quote

Unfortunately, they aren't of great help and some are quite "off" the topic

There are not as off topic as you might think. In my and Akhare example we finish describing my shape at 3C and we barely have the space to ask for the J of H.

When you finish showing a 5422 at 3Nt you lose another step because you need a terminator, you might be able to ask for the J of H for 6 or 7 but to stop at 5 forget it. If you want to relay, work at ending your hands sooner.

[Free]

Valardent, on 2012-May-19, 03:43, said:

one could bid on 3NT :
a) 5♥
b) 4♦ followed by 5♥
c) 4♣ (if response is 4 red) followed by 5♥

What message/ask would u assess to each sequence?

I forgot about these ones.

C is easy when partner responds 4♦: it's signoff, partner doesn't have enough Q-points (4♥ would be relay, so 5♥ is signoff).
When partner responds 4♥ however, we could pass, so 5♥ can be used for other purposes. But this is so rare that I wouldn't make any agreements here and leave this option meaningless.

Now that we had the easy ones, let's continue with A & B. These usually are both meaningless, so we can give them some kind of purpose.
For the record: if you have 7 different slam-going options (4♣, 4♥, 4♠, 4NT, 5♣, 5♦, 5♥) when the exact distribution is known, then 5♥ is already defined. However, most people have only 1 or 2 Q-point/control asks, and 4 RKC's, so usually you have 5 or 6 slam actions. So lets suppose 5♥ isn't defined.
- If you think it's useful not to go through all the steps to search for grand slam, then, in accordance with the principle of fast arrival, you can define A to small slam invite and B to grand slam invite (forcing) based on ♥ quality.
- Personally I don't think it's useful investigate grand slam this way when you have other tools available. So you can basically use A & B both for small slam investigation based on ♥ suit quality. Perhaps one when holding the J, one without the J. In accordance with the principle of fast arrival, you can use A to ask for 2 top honors +♥J (or 3 top honors), and B to ask for 2 top honors.

I just hope you and your partner can remember these agreements after a few years when they finally come up.

[nige1]

Valardent writes "Matchpoints 1♠ is 11-22 hcp 5+♠, 2♣ a GF relay ... 3NT : 5422 10+ slam points (123 points) At this stage(4♣ is SP ask, 4♦ terminator, 4♥, 4♠, 4NT are optionnal BW in respectively ♠, ♥ and ♣), if one decides to forget about a grand slam and focuses on ♥ quality, I can see 2 or 3 ways to put that matter in the spotlight :
As 4♦ followed by pass on 4♥ would be SO, one could bid on 3NT :
a) 5♥
b) 4♦ followed by 5♥
c) 4♣ (if response is 4 red) followed by 5♥
What message/ask would u assess to each sequence? (a gradation of ♥ quality only, or a mix of ♥ qual. and min/max hand, any other?)

Given Valardent'smethods, IMO:
- 4♦ then pass 4♥ = 10. Partner knows you have a game-force so won't bid 4♥ with a mountain.
- 4♦ followed by 5♥ = 9. Slam-try spot-lighting ♥ quality.
- 4♣ then 5♥ =8. Values in minors. try.
- 4♠ (surely 4♥ would be better bid to agree ♥?) then 5♥ = 7.Kickback try.

---

[PrecisionL]

Using Copious Canape Club:

1♣ (16+ hcp) - 1♠ (4+♥) & G.F.
1NT (Relay) - 2♣ (canape with 5+ minor)
2♦ (Relay) - 2♠ = 5+ ♦
2NT (DAB) - 3♦ = 1=4=5=3 distribution
3♥ Beta - 4♣ = 4 Controls
4♥ - pass = poor fit and missing an ace or 2 kings

[Zelandakh]

PrecisionL, on 2012-May-21, 16:27, said:

Using Copious Canape Club:

This sequence does not solve the primary problem which is to discover if partner holds the ♥J below 5♥. So far only Ben has managed this as far as I can see.

[PrecisionL]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-22, 04:05, said:

This sequence does not solve the primary problem which is to discover if partner holds the ♥J below 5♥. So far only Ben has managed this as far as I can see.

Note to self: Redo Asking bids to include J on 4-4 fits .....

Whoops, I do have J showing in lower auctions, now where is that file?