[antonylee]

When I was still in France it would have gone
2N-4♣ (xf (nobody plays Gerber)) (not saying that I'm handling hands with both minors very well, though)
4♦-4♠ (cue)
4N (KC)-6♦ (1, 1 useful void)
6♠ (GST)-7♦

[32519]

Minors Over 2NT: Do you have good agreements?

Rainer Herrmann:
This thread of yours appears to have stumped the panel of posters. I have no idea if this has happened before. A handful of people have offered a bidding sequence for the actual hand posted. Thus far, no one has offered a TOTAL GOOD AGREEMENT as suggested in the thread title.

My own bidding agreements over 2NT have a much greater focus on the majors. I’m guessing that other regular posters are guilty of the same error as myself. You have opened up a hole in my bidding structures which I am diligently working on to plug.

What are my objectives over 2NT? I still want to be able to retain as many as possible of the following:
1. Stayman / Garbage Stayman / Crawling Stayman
2. Jacoby Transfer Bids
3. Smolen (both 5/4 and 6/4 holdings)
4. Minor Suit Stayman / 4-Way transfer bids. As I cannot have both, once I have managed to plug the hole in my bidding agreements, it will become evident which one gets dumped.
5. The ability to show 5/5 in the minors with no slam interest
6. The ability to show 5/5 in the minors with slam interest
7. The ability to sign off in 4 of a minor with a minor suit bust
8. The ability to transfer into a minor suit single suiter and then continue with slam exploration with the appropriate hand
9. Texas / SA Texas in my current agreements will need to go to make room for 5-8 above. This will be accommodated via Jacoby Transfer Bids followed by a raise to game. I still need to decide exactly what I will use the 4♣ and 4♦ bids for now.
10. Gerber has long ago been dumped in favour of a quantitative 4NT

I am already facing some creative thinking to restructure my current agreements to accommodate all of the above. I am now asking this for the third time; how do you also include Puppet Stayman in amongst a very scarce resource i.e. available bidding space? To complicate this jigsaw puzzle even further; I need to be able to cope with opposition interference.

Great stuff Rainer. We want to see more of these sorts of threads!

[sfi]

 rhm, on 2012-April-20, 04:04, said:

Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

I am interested in the following questions:

How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?

Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7♦?

Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

We don't play much more than your basic minor suit stayman, where 3S asks and responder bids 3NT to deny one. Over that, responder can show one long one (6/4) by bidding it or two 5+ card minors by bidding a major suit shortage. True single suiters are shown by bidding them at the four level over 2NT (or 5 level if you have no interest in anything but game).

On the hand provided, my partner and I came up with:

2NT - 3S
4D - 4S*
5C* - 5D
5H* - 6C**
6H** - 7D

* = first round control
** = second round control

We would have stopped at 5D had the minors been reversed. Over 4D the bidding would have gone 4H - 5C; 5D - Pass.

Our system has a number of issues with minors over 2NT, but this hand didn't hit any of them.

[32519]

 rhm, on 2012-April-20, 04:04, said:

Yesterday in a weak field with a weak partner the following pair of hands came up:

---

South opens proceedings with 2NT
Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

I am interested in the following questions:

1. Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7♦?
2. Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

Rainer Herrmann

Guys, I think I have come up with a simple, yet very workable solution to Rainer’s quiz on this hand. Utilize the principle of “consuming bidding space to save bidding space.”

So, to question 1 I suggest the following:
2NT-4♠ (♠ void and at least 5/5 in the minors)
From this point forward you can use all your slam exploring devices e.g. voidwood, 6-card Blackwood etc for the minors. I have no intention of being prescriptive as to the methods you must follow. Reaching the ♦ grand slam is easy now.

In question 2 the ♠ void becomes a ♥ void. I suggest the following bidding sequence:
2NT-4♥ (♥ void and at least 5/5 in the minors)
5♦ (signoff, to play, the ♥ void doesn’t help my hand in any way)

To show a 2/1 holding in the majors, have a look at the solution proposed by Mike777. After 2NT-3♠-4♦-4♠
The 4♠ bid could now show a ♠ singleton

All I need to do now is to sew up the rest of my bidding agreements after a 2NT opener.

How are the rest of you progressing with fixing this hole in your agreements that Rainer has exposed?

[awm]

This hand seems very easy after:

2NT - 3♠ (minor suit stayman)
4♦ - 4♠ (agrees diamonds, shortness, slam interest)

Opener knows his hand is gold at this point and can drive at least to six, with plenty of space to cue-bid to seven. For example:

5♣ - 5♠ (void)
5NT - 6♣
7♦

or with slightly different agreements (i.e. if 5♣ doesn't guarantee slam suitability):

5♣ - 5♦
5♥ - 5♠
5NT - 6♣
7♦

If you start with "3♠ forces 3NT" and then 4♠, you are in the somewhat sticky position of having to both set trumps and explore your grand slam prospects without much space. The "minor suit stayman" method is much superior.

[32519]

 rhm, on 2012-April-20, 04:04, said:

Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

I am interested in the following questions:
1. How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?
2. Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

 awm, on 2012-April-22, 11:56, said:

The "minor suit stayman" method is much superior.

1. You haven't addressed the rest of Rainer's issues with this hand; "How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?"
2. MSS works here because opener had a 4-card minor. What do you do when opener is 4432 or 4423?
3. How do you sign off in 4m with a minor suit bust?

[awm]

1. One suited minor hands start with 3c. The 3s bid shows both minors.

2. Grand slam is much less likely if opener has no 4m. But I'd have the choice of 4d (longer suit) or 4s (shortage with 5/5). I'm at least as well placed as anyone else here.

3. I don't sign off in 4m when partner bids 2nt. I bid 3nt. It will make often, and when it doesn't 4m will often fail. This is different from over 1nt where we may have less overall strength and there is more room to explore.

[Fluffy]

After minor suit stayman I think 5♠ is better than 4♠+5♠

Anyway I don't play minor suit stayman, I play something similar but the answers differ a bit:

2NT-3♠ interest in the minros and now:

3NT= I have too many honnors or cards in the majors to colaborate, I wanna play 3NT
4♣= I accept playing on a minor (3-3 minors is possible)
4♦= I accept playing on a minor but I have strong preference for diamonds.
4♥= 4-4 minors (didn't discuss follow ups)

after 2NT-3♠-4NT responder bids 5+ card suit he is intrested anyway to play on. After 2Nt-3♠-4♣ clubs are implied unless responder bids 4♦ now

[whereagles]

I've been using this convention, which I picked up from Forrester's TRS system:

2NT 3♠ = transfer to 3NT. To play there (2NT-3NT being baron) or minor suit slam tries.

2NT 3♠
3NT ..??

4♣ = 5 clubs + 4 diamonds. Opener bids 4D fit; 4M cue and club fit; 4NT = NO FIT.
4♦ = 5 diamonds + 4 clubs. Opener bids 4M fit in corresponding minor; 4NT = NO FIT.
4M = 6 of corresponding minor. Opener bids 4NT to play; 5m not interested; 1st free step RKCB.
4NT = 55m, slam invite but NF. Opener bid 5/6m to play.
5♣ = 55m, slam forcing. Opener bids 5D 6AB; 5M preference for linked minor; 6m = no interest in grand.

6AB: six ace blackwood (4 aces + minor Ks). Responses 0-3, 1-4, 2 + no Qs, 2 + CQ, etc.

[Zelandakh]

 nigel_k, on 2012-April-20, 15:18, said:

I prefer 3♠ as minors or diamonds, and 4♣ directly over 2NT as single suited clubs. This means that opener will rebid 4♦ setting trumps on this hand. If you play 3♠ as minors or clubs you can't do this. So we are in a cue bidding sequence after 4♦. Responder's 4♠ denies a heart control and therefore opener's 5♣ shows one. You will confidently reach at least 6♦ after that.

Out of interest why do you prefer 3♠ for diamonds and 4♣ for clubs rather than the reverse, which not only has better right-siding but also assigns the space more efficiently? This (reverse structure) is basically the system I described earlier. It might be even better to use 2NT - 3NT as clubs and then 2NT - 3♠ is specifically either to play 3NT or both minors and slam interest. However I have enough system to remember already without the fear of failing the Beer convention test for such a minimal gain.

 32519, on 2012-April-20, 17:52, said:

What this thread hasn’t addressed yet is 5/5 in the minors and a bust. How do you sign off in 4 of either minor with a bust?

If you really feel the need for such a hand then you could include it as: 2NT - 3♠; 3NT - 4NT in the structure I gave before. Another (probably better) option is be to channel your quantitative slam invite through 4♠ (can double as Baron) and use 2NT - 4NT for this purpose. As for signing off in 4 of a minor, this seems like a pretty bad idea. We have to take 2 extra tricks against 2NT and the target is so small as to be virtually non-existent. As Adam suggests, I would think there are more candidate hands where we can make 9 tricks in NT than where we make 7 of fewer in NT and exactly 10 in a minor.

[32519]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-April-23, 01:09, said:

As for signing off in 4 of a minor, this seems like a pretty bad idea. We have to take 2 extra tricks against 2NT and the target is so small as to be virtually non-existent. As Adam suggests, I would think there are more candidate hands where we can make 9 tricks in NT than where we make 7 of fewer in NT and exactly 10 in a minor.

Zel

My guess is that you are spot on here. With 0-2 HCP, the 2NT bid is getting passed out. With 3-4 HCP, the adventuress are lifting it to 3NT and hoping for the best. I don't have any problems with this approach for the average club/tournament player. But what do top flight players do? Say as responder you are dealt a 7-card minor and zero HCP. With no entry to the hand, wouldn't you want to be in 4 of the minor instead of 2NT?

At MP, taking 10 tricks in a minor scores 130 where 2NT taking 8 tricks scores 120.

[FrancesHinden]

We prefer responder to describe rather than ask, so we play

2NT -
3♠ = sign-off in 3NT or diamonds*
3NT = clubs*
[4m = slam try in linked major]
4♥ = clubs**
4♠ = diamonds**

*Either a 5332 quantitative slam try, a minimum 6322, or a two-suiter (or if responder has clubs, a hand that knows what the final contract is but wants partner to declarer it)
**Single-suiter, 6+ cards

Over 4♥ opener bids 4♠ keycard for clubs, 4NT an unsuitable hand, 5♣ slam interest but not enough to drive. Similarly over 4♠
Opener must complete the 3-level transfers, and now responder bids:
- 4NT invitational usually 5332
- suits are transfers, showing a 2-suited slam try e.g. 2NT-3NT-4C- 4D = hearts, 4H = spades, 4S = minors, longer clubs. Opener completes to the major to agree the suit, bids 4NT sign-off, anything else agrees the minor (transferring to diamonds & bidding clubs is natural)

This hand is easy if responder decides to show the spade void once opener shows slam interest: 2NT-3S (diamonds/sign-off) - 3NT - 4C (both minors, longer diamonds) - 4D (slam interest with diamond support) - 5S - 7D. Opener is super-huge opposite both minors and a spade void.

If responder goes more slowly it becomes slightly more guessy: 2NT-3S-3NT-4C-4D-4S (cue)-5C (cue) - 5S -.... now I'd like to bid 5NT rolling but we play this as grand slam force, opener will be worried about something like singleton SA opposite, which means fewer high cards in the minors (A x A10xxxx QJxxx is a pretty big hand and grand is on the club finesse).

With one or two 4-card minors we start with 3♣, continuations depend on who has what major suits.


I have no interest in being able to sign off in 4m, although technically in our system responder could pass after 2NT-3NT-4C. He never does.