[32519]

From the feedback in this thread “Jacoby 2NT” http://www.bridgebas...099-jacoby-2nt/ , kenrexford, whereagles and TWO4BRIDGE all advise to steer clear of Jacoby 2NT. When this hand occurred I was looking for ways on how to find the slam using Jacoby 2NT with a combined 28 HCP count in a natural 2/1 system. Unable to find the slam using Jacoby, I am now convinced that kenrexford, whereagles and TWO4BRIDGE are all correct. It’s time to dump Jacoby 2NT!

---

Trying the different methods suggested in the above thread, I came up with this:

Method 1: SAYC Booklet
• 3 of a side suit = singleton
• 4 of a side suit = good 5-card suit
• 4 of trumps = minimum (11-14 HCP), no shortness
• 3NT = medium (15-17), no shortness
• 3 of trumps = maximum (18+), no shortness

OPENER...RESPONDER
1H............2NT
3NT...........?

How would the auction continue? Neither partner knows about the ♣ fit, a place for declarer to dump losers on.

Method 2: Suggested by Roger Clee
• 1M - 2NT
• 3♣: Min, 3♦ asks
• 3♦: Extras, shortness, 3♥ asks
• 3♥: Extras, 5422, 3♠ asks
• 3♠: Extras, 6+ no shortness (3NT non-serious over this)
• 3NT: 18-19 bal
• 4 lower: 5-5, extras
• 4M: Min, 6+ no shortness, good for slam

1H............2NT
3C............?

After a minimum response, responder will most likely signoff in 4♥. Again, the ♣ fit is not discovered.

Method 3: Suggested by gwnn
• 3♣ minimum (i.e. less than an ace above a minimum, now 3♦ asks and we have the same structure except 4M shows a 5332/5422)
• 3♦ non minimum, no shortness
• 3♥ short clubs
• 3♠ short diamonds
• 3NT short other major
• 4x=5-5
• 4M min, 6M, no shortness.

1H............2NT
3C............?

Same result as method 2. Again, the ♣ fit is not discovered.

Method 4: Suggested by Zelandakh

• 3♣ = min with shortage (3♦ asks, 3♥ forces cues + frivolous, new suit natural)
• 3♦ = mid with shortage (3♥ asks, 3♠ forces cues, 3NT spades, 4m natural)
• 3♥ = min without shortage (frivolous and cues)
• 3♠ = mid without shortage (cues)
• 3NT/4m = max (you can choose between cues or shortage-showing bids here, cues are probably better as these hands can effectively take control)

1H..................2NT
3S..................4D (cue)
4S(Kickback)..5H (2 with the queen)
?

With 2 ♦ losers (1 taken care of with the Ace) and 1 ♠ loser, opener must gamble on bidding the slam. The gamble works here because of the ♣ fit. However, I don’t believe that top flight players take these sort of gambles. Should the gamble fail, you have cost your side plenty of IMPS.

Method 5: Bog standard 2/1 as suggested by Vampyr
• Or you can just do it the old-fashioned way and bid 2/1 followed by a "delayed game raise".

1H............2C (2/1 GF)
3C (fit)......3H (double fit, ♥ and ♣)
4NT (6-card Blackwood)

With bog standard 2/1 the ♣ fit is found and now the slam can be safely bid.

[mgoetze]

 32519, on 2012-February-10, 10:25, said:

Unable to find the slam using Jacoby, I am now convinced that kenrexford, whereagles and TWO4BRIDGE are all correct. It’s time to dump Jacoby 2NT!

Thanks for informing us. But maybe you should tell your partner instead.

[whereagles]

This hand isn't a J2NT problem. It's an evaluation problem.

The North hand isn't fit for J2NT. With a good side suit and prime controls in the residue, you should not use J2NT (regardless of what follow-ups you use) but go the normal 2/1 GF route. If pard can support your clubs you're on the way to one of those magical dbl-fit slams. Even a grand is possible, as it could be the case here.

[bluecalm]

Jacoby 2NT doesn't make much sense as it's high bid so it should be used for very specific hands. Bidding it with most GF hands with 4 card support without 5carder on the side is obviously bad design.
That being said if you have free 2NT bid in your system you could probably make good use of it if you pack specific hands there and develop good structure after it.
I think invites with 4 card support should be in 2NT as it's difficult to pack them anywhere else. Now if you add some GF's there or not is your choice.
Btw, in my recent favourite system (LV) 2NT is either 10-11 3 card support invite or 7-9hcp with 4 card support (below invite).

[jh51]

 whereagles, on 2012-February-10, 10:32, said:

This hand isn't a J2NT problem. It's an evaluation problem.

I disagree somewhat. OP correctly identified that this is a hand where the partnership should be in game, or possibly a slam. But this was a case of using the wrong GF tool. Kind of like using a hammer to drive a screw. A screwdriver tends to work much better.

[daveharty]

I assume you're exaggerating when you say it was this hand that brought on this decision, but if not, basing major system changes on the result of a single hand is ludicrous. Especially if the convention wasn't necessarily used properly, as whereagles suggests.

[kenrexford]

Using my methods:

1♥-2♣(real or fit, GF)
2♦(real or balanced)-2♥(fit agreed)
3♣*-3♦(control)
4♣**-6NT***


*No spade control (hence at least two spades; bypassed 2♠), two of the top three honors in hearts (bypassed 2NT), one of the top three clubs
**Not all three top hearts (bypassed 3♥), no spade Queen (bypassed 3♠) not serious, two of the top three clubs
***I can count twelve tricks -- ten cards in hearts and clubs, plus two Aces. I need to be able to ruff twice in Declarer's hand for 7♥, but I cannot pitch enough on the club suit to do that. Partner cannot have the diamond King and be non-serious. Partner cannot have a stiff to allow a quick ruff opn the short side in clubs, so 7♣ is not an option.

[Phil]

Sathya thinks that the key to these slam hands is getting the weakish 5 card suit out there. The jury is out for me, but I think he makes a good argument.

With a strong suit, its usually fine, but here if partner does not have fitting club honors, or a lot of extras, slam is an underdog.

[mikeh]

In my view, the problem isn't with J2N: the problem is with deciding to use the wrong slam-investigatory approach in the first place.

It isn't difficult for responder to see that the 'right' hand opposite could lead to slam, but that the 'right' hand must have either significant extras or a reasonable hand with a club fit.

Virtually any method will work if opener has significant extras....we make a gf, we show hearts, and opener takes over because he can see that opposite a minimum gf, the partnership assets are worth exploring slam.

But when slam depends on fit...on a double fit in this case.....it behooves responder to explore the fit, and the simplest way is.....drum roll please....to bid naturally.

it is in my view almost always better to show a 5 card side suit than it is to use J2N. Indeed, I cannot remember ever seeing a hand on which J2N was superior....equivalent, yes....superior...no. That isn't to say that no such hand exists, but it is to say that I think this is a useful rule.


1♥ 2♣

3♣ 3♥

Now opener can see that slam is possible....responder has gf'd and then shown the heart fit. Opener's hand, with AKx in clubs, is big. He also has strong trump and, all in, some extras.

He has various avenues available to him, but I would suggest a 4♣ cue. Now responder, looking at both side Aces, and knowing of the double fit, can (if he wants) keycard. I would recommend that when two suits have been bid and raised, keycard should be 6 keycard.

Thus opener would show 1 or 4 keycards, and responder can literally count 12 cashers and can ask for Kings, since a pointed K leads to 13 tops in 7N.

Using this hand as a reason to abandon J2N is an example of a poor carpenter blaming his tools. The OP used a chisel rather than a hammer, and now wants to throw the chisel away because he got a bad result. So the next time a hand comes up on which the chisel is the best tool, he will be using a hammer....will he throw that away next?

[ArtK78]

The key to this hand is the trick taking potential of the club suit in a heart contract. For that reason, bidding Jacoby on the North hand is misguided.

A good natural 2/1 auction would be something like this:

1♥ - 2♣
3♣- 3♥
4♣ - 4♦
4♥ - 4♠
4NT - 5♠
5NT - 6♥

Clearly, opener cannot go beyond 4♥ holding two small spades. Once responder cue bids 4♠, opener knows that there are 12 tricks (assuming 5 club tricks). He then looks for a grand.

Another possibility is that opener could bid 5♥ over 4♦ to focus on spades. Responder could then cue bid 5♠ and opener could again make a grand slam try, still stopping in 6♥.

The main point here is that Jacoby 2NT is fine if the hand is suited for Jacoby 2NT. It is not one size fits all.

[ArtK78]

While I was putting together my post MikeH posted his. We are thinking along the same lines (I am sure that is frightening for both of us).

There is a lot to be said for responder bidding 6 ace RKCB after opener confirms a double fit. But, again, the point is that responder's hand is not well suited for Jacoby 2NT.

[fromageGB]

I don't think it time to dump 2NT. But maybe this hand is not the one for it. I like 2NT with GF 4 card support if I have nothing else useful to say, or if I would be interested in hearing of a shortage in partner's hand, or telling of a shortage in mine. But here I have no shortage to show, and if partner is short in any side suit it doesn't particularly improve my hand.

Conversely, I have a reasonable 5 card suit to show that does not stop me ending in spades, so I choose 2♣. QJ9 are useful values. On the actual hand, partner in response has nothing else to say other than club support. For us an opener rebid above the level of 2M shows 15/16 so 3♣ fits. Now as responder I am entitled to get excited : a 2 suited fit and outside aces. A 28/29 count slam seems quite probable.

1♥ 2♣ 3♣ 3♥ 3♠(the non-serious 3NT) 4♠(ace ask) 4NT(1, or 3 without the queen) 5♣(which?) 6♣(3, and this is the cheapest K) 6♥ is not unreasonable.

But on another hand, I may be interested in finding or telling of a shortage, or not have a decent side suit, so I will keep 2NT in my armoury.

[sasioc]

I'd have opened the South cards 1NT and certainly not reached slam now.

While I don't know a great deal about bidding theory or the merits of J2N, I do know that ceasing to play a convention because partner didn't know precisely what you held after you bid it is a fallacy, even more so if the convention was used inappropriately. There are plenty of examples of hands where standard methods just don't get you to where you would want to be if you could see both hands, this is what happens if you don't play full relays (which obviously have their own set of problems).

I've never heard of playing J2N as whereagles does, although I can see the sense in what he says. Ofc, bidding 2♣ on this now means you might need a different piece of kit to untangle that 9th trump later on - surely you could construct a different hand (with no double fit) where South knowing about the 9th heart would make the difference between bidding your cold slam and dropping it in game....

[ArtK78]

 sasioc, on 2012-February-10, 11:22, said:

I'd have opened the South cards 1NT and certainly not reached slam now.

While I don't know a great deal about bidding theory or the merits of J2N, I do know that ceasing to play a convention because partner didn't know precisely what you held after you bid it is a fallacy, even more so if the convention was used inappropriately. There are plenty of examples of hands where standard methods just don't get you to where you would want to be if you could see both hands, this is what happens if you don't play full relays (which obviously have their own set of problems).

I've never heard of playing J2N as whereagles does, although I can see the sense in what he says. Ofc, bidding 2♣ on this now means you might need a different piece of kit to untangle that 9th trump later on - surely you could construct a different hand (with no double fit) where South knowing about the 9th heart would make the difference between bidding your cold slam and dropping it in game....

I strongly dislike opening the South hand 1NT. Aside from the fact that it contains a dominant suit (hearts), all of the strength is concentrated in 2 suits. You could easily wind up in 3NT when 4♥ is a much better contract. Consider what would happen if the North hand had only one pointed suit ace and 3-3 in the majors instead of 2-4.

[kenrexford]

The of opening 1NT makes sense, but that's distracting. Eliminate the Jacks and make the clubs AQ instead, and the auction goes the same way.

The idea of the 1♥-2♣-3♣-3♥ auction seems poor to me. Sure, Opener has a COV in hearts and clubs, where it seems natural and logical to raise clubs. But, although this is not a classic high reverse auction, it technically is a high-reverse auction if the 2♣ call includes a balanced or a fit-only option, and it is functionally similar to a high reverse sequence if partner can hold 3-4-3-3 (or similar) shape.

Because of this, I really dislike raising what is often a 4-card suit with only 3-card "support" when another option stands out, especially if the raise gets us to the three-level, and especially if the "fit" is a minor-suit fit. You have preempted the auction, your bids likely are geared toward probes, and Opener's range is wide as can be. This spells disaster.

The idiot (and occasionally ethically dubious) sequences that humor (irritate?) me the most, perpetrated by "experts" all the time, are these unwise minor raises and a series of hesitations and grimaces as substitutes for sound bidding.

When partner really has a fit for your major, then the raise works like a charm. If not, the raise is insanity with this holding (IMO). Actually, the raise when partner has a fit is not that great either, as Responder should expect a likely unbalanced hand (5♥/4♣ and ???). 5332 is not expected, or should not be.

[gnasher]

I strongly dislike opening the South hand 1NT, but sometimes one's system compels one to do unpleasant things. I'm not convinced that 1♥-1♠;2♣ is a better description. Maybe we should upgrade it to 18-19, though.

Anyway, a 1NT opening might actually work well on these two hands. Responder would use his systemic method to show game-going values with four hearts and five clubs, and opener would drive slam.

[mikeh]

 gnasher, on 2012-February-10, 12:07, said:

I strongly dislike opening the South hand 1NT, but sometimes one's system compels one to do unpleasant things. I'm not convinced that 1♥-1♠;2♣ is a better description. Maybe we should upgrade it to 18-19, though.

Anyway, a 1NT opening might actually work well on these two hands. Responder would use his systemic method to show game-going values with four hearts and five clubs, and opener would drive slam.

I'd be interested in your systemic method for showing 4 hearts and 5 clubs. I suspect that the majority of strong 1N bidders would see a stayman response, hearts shown and now a jump to game. 2=4=2=4 with weak hearts, weak clubs and only 13 hcp doesn't look like a slam try to me.

I didn't address the 1N issue since the OP was complaining about the inutility of J2N in the context of a 1♥ opening. I suspect that ATB I might well open 1N, but this hand is a good example of why that is not always the best approach.

[P_Marlowe]

The auction you gave in bog standard 2/1 assumes that 2C showed a 5 carder.
This is certainly not the case.
What do you bid with a bal. 4333 hand, clubs being the 4 carder, and 16-17?

Besides example, which play better in a 5-3 fit than in a 5-4 fit are also not
very convincing.

Finally - Natural systems have a hard time finding low HCP slams, when a semi
bal. hands is across another semi bal. hand.
If you want to id those play Precision or something similar.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Wackojack]

 P_Marlowe, on 2012-February-10, 12:47, said:

The auction you gave in bog standard 2/1 assumes that 2C showed a 5 carder.
This is certainly not the case.
What do you bid with a bal. 4333 hand, clubs being the 4 carder, and 16-17?

Besides example, which play better in a 5-3 fit than in a 5-4 fit are also not
very convincing.

Yes agreed.

Bog standard J2N looks fine to me. If you say move the KC to the diamond or spade suit then slam is only less than certain if you get a lead in the suit that has ace without king. However, if your partner wants to play some or the rarified things suggested that maybe no other partners want to play and you are happy with that then go ahead.

[olegru]

 32519, on 2012-February-10, 10:25, said:

Unable to find the slam using Jacoby, I ...

If you play this board with partner similar to mine favourite one or me you would not care too much about inability to find the slam using whatever methods. Your primary concerns would be to stay out of grand.