[straube]

So I'm thinking that we would only use 1D-1H for heart hands and for GF balanced hands without a major. Also....

1D-
.....1N-7-11
.....2H-5S/4+H, less than GI
.....2S-5m/4m, less than GI
.....2N-12-13, bal and most likely 3+/3+ in the minors
.....3L-weak

So now
1D-2D can definitely be forcing with 5+ diamonds and
1D-2C can either always promise 5+ clubs or potentially 4 clubs with longer diamonds. It's just that 1D-2C leaves more room to sort things out than 1D-2D.

Our continuations previously left

1D-2C, 2D as 4+ diamonds and less than 4 clubs.

Also

1D-2m, 2H was a balanced hand without a 4-fit.

1D-2m, 2H-2S was a weakness signal, limiting responder's hand to invitational strength.

We could almost reverse relay with the GF hands..

1D-2m, 2H
.....2N-single-suited?
..........3D-higher short
..........3H-middle short
..........3S-lower short
.....3C-reverser, minors
.....3D-5m/5m
.....3H-unreversed, minors, higher
.....3S-unreversed, minors, lower

except that we're running out of room. Maybe 2C=clubs or minors and opener's 2D rebid shows a balanced hand.

1D-2C, 2D (bal)
.....2H-both minors
..........2N-reverser
..........3C-5/5
..........3D-unreversed, higher
..........3H-unreversed, bal
..........3S-unreversed, lower
.....2S-weakness signal
.....2N-weakness, minors
.....3C-SS, no short
.....3D-SS, higher
.....3H-SS, middle
.....3S-SS, lower

and

1D-2D
.....2H-bal
..........2S-weakness signal
..........2N-weakness signal, 5D/4C
..........3C-SS, no short
..........3D-SS, higher
..........3H-SS, middle
..........3S-SS, lower

[straube]

So 1D shows...

1. 11-13 bal
2. 5m/5m
3. 6D/4M
4. 5m431s, 5m440s, 5m422s, and 4441s

but 1D-2C shows

1. GI with 5+ clubs
2. GF with 6+ clubs or 5/4 minors

so there's many more patterns in 1D than 2C. Plus after 1D-2C, responder has shown 4+ in clubs while opener has not started to describe his hand.

Therefore, opener should relay most of the time...probably for many hands that aren't even balanced. Unfortunately, this leads to a dual captaincy in which
opener can judge the strain while responder is unlimited. Still, it seems a necessary evil.

Opener should still try to show some of his patterns. Maybe those with a good fit?

[straube]

1D-2C (shows GI with 5+ clubs or GF with 6+ clubs or 5/4 either way minors)

2D-2-5 clubs (balanced and 5+D unbalanced hands)
.....2H-C/D
..........2N-reverser
..........3C-5/5
..........etc
.....2S-weakness signal
.....2N-weakness signal, 4 diamonds
.....3C+ resolves single-suited
2H-0 or 1 club, 4+ diamonds
.....2S-GF relay
..........2N-4H/5D
..........3C-3-suited
...............3H-4-4-4-1
...............3S-4-4-5-0
..........3D-4-3-5-1
..........3H-4-2-6-1
..........3S-4-3-6-0
.....2N-nf
.....3C-nf
.....3D-nf
2S-C/D reverser +1

1D-2D (shows GI with 5+ diamonds or GF with 6+ diamonds)

2H-2+ diamonds
.....2S-weakness signal
.....2N-weakness signal, 4 clubs
.....other-resolves GF single-suited diamonds
2S-3-suited, short diamond, minimum
.....2N-nf
.....3C-nf
.....3D-nf
.....3H-relays
..........3S-4414
..........3N-4405
2N-(43)15, minimum
.....3C-nf
.....3D-nf
.....3H-relays
..........3S-3415
..........3N-4315
3C-4414, max
3D-4405, max
3H-3415, max
3S-4315, max

[Zelandakh]

Do you respond 1H or 2C with GI hands of x4y5 shape? What about x4y6? Is there any reason you cannot use 2D as a relay after 1D - 2C except for forcing you to 3D when a diamond partial is the best spot?

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2011-December-31, 08:48, said:

Do you respond 1H or 2C with GI hands of x4y5 shape? What about x4y6? Is there any reason you cannot use 2D as a relay after 1D - 2C except for forcing you to 3D when a diamond partial is the best spot?

We always respond in a major (MAFIA) after we open 1D. I'm not sure what your last question is. 1D-2C can be GI with 4D/5C and

1D-2C, 2D-2N shows GI 4D/5C such that opener can preference 3m.

Also, if opener has something like 4-1-6-2 and responder has something like Axx Kxx xx KQxxx (which is GI for us), the bidding would go...

1D-2C, 2D-2S, 3D

I'm early into this process, so feel free to contribute. We're now using 1H response to 1D as either hearts or GF balanced, so that frees up 2C and 2D to be more distributional hands. For GF either a 6m or 5/4m and for GI a 5m possibly balanced. No major for either. 1D-2N would be balanced invite with no 5m such that opener can bid his own 5m and be assured that we have a fit.

[straube]

Occasionally, opener will be able to relay exact shape. When this happens, responder will be able to continue with QP ask and parity cue bids. OTOH, more frequently it is responder showing shape. After this, responder bids what he thinks we can make. 4m is a possible contract, but with a max perfecta, responder may be able to bid slam.

1D-2C (shows GI with 5+ clubs or GF with 6+ clubs or 5/4 either way minors)

2D-2-5 clubs (balanced and 5+D unbalanced hands)
.....2H-GF, C/D
..........2N-reverser
..........3C-5/5
..........etc
.....2S-GI, 5+ clubs
.....2N-GI, 5+ clubs, 4+ diamonds
.....etc-GF, C
2H-0 or 1 club, 4+ diamonds
.....2S-GF relay
..........2N-4H/5D
..........3C-3-suited
...............3H-4-4-4-1
...............3S-4-4-5-0
..........3D-4-3-5-1
..........3H-4-2-6-1
..........3S-4-3-6-0
.....2N-GI
.....3C-GI
.....3D-GI

2S-5/5 minors at +0
etc-resolves 5+ clubs, 4 diamonds
I'm thinking this is right because 2C promises only 4 clubs and GI strength, so we should reserve opener's patterning out to when he has 5 clubs and
a distributional hand.


1D-2D (shows GI with 5+ diamonds or GF with 6+ diamonds)

2H-2+ diamonds
.....2S-GI, 5+ diamonds
.....2N-GI, 5+ diamonds, 4+ clubs
.....etc-GF single-suited diamonds

2S-min, short diamond, 5+ clubs
.....2N-GI
.....3C-GI
.....3D-GI
.....3H-relays
..........3S-4315
..........3N-3415
..........4C-4405, 6
2N-min, 4414
.....3C-GI
.....3D-GI
.....3H-QP ask
3C-max, 3415
3D-max, 4315
3H-max, 4414
3S-max, 4405

[straube]

ok, so not that anyone is following this thread, but for posterity I'll point out that we did practice with this and it did seem to work, but we ran into a problem after 1D-2C when opener had a maximum hand with diamonds, so we gave up on showing the minor hands (we've a fit anyway) and have used that space for the diamond hands.

1D-2C,
.....2D-2+ clubs, other
.....2H-club short, likely minimum if 5+ diamonds but could be max 4144 or 40(54)
..........2S-GF relay
...............2N-4H/5D
....................3D-3451
....................3H-2461
....................3S-3460
....................etc
..............3C-4351
..............etc
.....2S-max, 4H/5D
.....2N-max, 4S/5D, higher
.....3C-max, 4252
.....etc.

The only tricky thing (but not that tricky) is that the 2H bid announces club shortness and can't be 5422 while resolving shape immediately includes those patterns.

[bluecalm]

Quote

We always respond in a major (MAFIA) after we open 1D.

Did you post somewhere your system after:
1D - 1M
1NT - ?

1D - 1M
2D - ?

I am interested how 1M bidder bids his 6+ clubs hands now. I tend to think MAFIA is good in precision but I had problems arriving at good solutions in those situations.

[straube]

We use transfers after 1D-1M, 1N. Basically, opener accepts the transfer which can be passed or serves as a relay to show responder's shape. He can show a 5431, 5422, 5521, 6331, or 6322. That's as differentiated he can get before 3N has been reached, so we can't presently show a 4/6 but there is probably space enough if one tried. For instance, the 5422s could wind up at 3N (invitational) or 4C (forcing). Something like that. I'm happy enough that we can show a 5431 after 1N because not many folks can do even that.

1D-1M, 1N-3C is GI six clubs

1D-1M, 1N-2H, 2S-2N, 3C-P is the fastest way to sign off in clubs

1D-1M, 1N-2C, 2D-

.....now 2N shows a reverser for M/C
..........3C-relays
...............3D-higher short
...............3H-5422
...............3S-lower short

but 3C would show a 5/5
..........3D-relays
...............3H-higher short
...............3S-lower short

and 3D up resolve the unreversed hands.

If we're single-suited, we start 2D and then rebid 2S.

example...

1D-1H, 1N-2D, 2H-2S, 2N
.....3C-6322
.....3D-6133
.....3H-6313
.....3S-6331

And if we're 3-suited, we start with 2S

1D-1H, 1N-2S, 2N
.....3C-1444
.....3D-4414
.....3H-4441

1D-1M, 2D has specific meanings for us and we can relay opener's hand after that.

[Zelandakh]

So I am still not sure why you do not use 2D as a relay here which gives you 100% shape resolution. You can then throw any awkward hands into the relay breaks. I have used my 1-suited scheme for the GF hands below - obviously you would use a different one.

1D - 2C; 2D
===========
2H = INV, 5+ clubs, no 4M (2S GF relay, 2NT/3C natural)
2S = GF, 6-7 clubs, 3 hearts
2N = GF, 22(45)/(13)45
3C = GF, 6-7 clubs, 3 spades, 0-2 hearts
3D = GF, 6-7 clubs, 3 diamonds, 0-2 hearts/spades
3H = GF, 8+ clubs
3S = GF, 2227

I guess that if "awkward hands" means club shortage that this is essentially equivalent except that you are not calling the 2D bid a relay. However, I suspect that there are more useful ways of using these bids.

[straube]

We're using 2D as a relay for hands with club tolerance (2+) which helps responder whenever he holds a 6+ suit. You've left out the ability for responder to show GI with four diamonds as well as five clubs which can be very important to us as responder may still have 5+ diamonds.

1D-2C
2D-2H (relay, I have club invite)
2N-P (to play, ok)

Axxx xx KQxxx Kx opposite Kxx x Axxx Axxxx

Dividing hands into those with tolerance and those without works pretty well. Here's the latest...

1D-2C
.....2D-2+ clubs
..........2H-GF to 4-level, 5/4 in the minors
...............2S-relays
....................2N-reverser
....................3C-5/5
....................3D-5D/4C, higher
....................3H-2-2-5-4
....................3S-5D/4C, lower
..........2S-GI, 5+ clubs
...............2N-weak, no fit
....................3C-6 clubs
..........2N-GI, 4 diamonds, only 5 clubs
..........3C-GF, 6 clubs, balanced
...............stoppers can be bid up the line
..........3D-GF, 6 clubs, higher short
..........3H-GF, 6 clubs, middle short
..........3S-GF, 6 clubs, lower short
.....2H-minimum, short club (hence 4+ diamonds)
..........2S-GF relay
...............2N-4 hearts, 5+ diamonds
...............3C-3-suited
....................3H-4-4-4-1
....................3S-4-4-5-0
...............3D-4-3-5-1
...............3H-4-2-6-1
...............etc
..........2N-to play
...............3D-6 diamonds
..........3C-to play
..........3D-to play
.....2S-maximum, 4H/5D, club short
.....2N-maximum, 3-suited, short club
..........3D-4-4-4-1
..........3H-4-4-5-0
.....3C-maximum, 4-3-5-1
.....3D-maximum, 4-2-6-1
.....3H-maximum, 4-3-6-0
.....3S-maximum, 4-2-7-0
.....3N-maximum, 4-1-7-1

1D-2D
.....2H-2+ diamonds
..........2S-GI, 5+ diamonds
...............2N-weak, no fit
....................3C-6D/4C
....................3D-6D
..........2N-GI, 5D/4+C
...............3m-to play
..........3C-GF, 6D, bal
..........3D-GF, 6D, higher
..........3H-GF, 6D, middle
..........3S-GF, 6D, lower
.....2S-min, diamond short, 5 clubs
..........2N-to play
..........3C-to play
..........3D-to play
..........3H-asks shape
...............3S-3-4-1-5
...............3N-4-3-1-5
...............4C-4-4-0-5
.....2N-min, 4414
..........3m-to play
..........3H-QP ask
.....3C-max, 3415
.....3D-max, 4315
.....3H-max, 4414
.....3S-max, 4405, 6