[Ant590]

Ok, so the following sequence came up in a teams-of-eight match.

(2♦*) - 3♣ - (pass) - 4♣

* Multi: weak 2 in a major, or strong 2 in a minor, or 20-22 balanced

(1) If you sat down with a partner you had not discussed this sequence with, but who you generally trusted to know what you meant in unfamiliar situations, what would you assume it meant?

(2) What is the "best" treatment?

When you select the "best" treatment, I'd be interested in how you would show the other option(s).

Thanks all,
Ant.

[gwnn]

8 ish points, 3-4 clubs, overcaller may pass if he so wishes.

btw this is an annoying sequence.

[whereagles]

Invitational seems fair. 'To play' serves no purpose, forcing is probably not necessary and gerber is a death wish.

[Cascade]

Invitational, which obviously depends on your range for 3♣. Advancer here needs to take some risks in bidding 3NT so I also expect that the 4♣ bidder has some distribution so that 5♣ is likely to be a reasonable spot (compared with 3NT) if overcaller raises.

Indeed these are the worst auctions against a multi when we have values and the ambiguity remains about their suit and we have a problem in one of the majors.

[whereagles]

Problem in the majors?

Fear is teh path to the Dark Side!

[S2000magic]

whereagles, on 2011-December-04, 17:01, said:

Invitational seems fair. 'To play' serves no purpose, forcing is probably not necessary and gerber is a death wish.

This about sums up my feelings, though I wouldn't be quite so lenient in my description of Gerber.

[jdeegan]

Gerber - all 4♣ bids are Gerber

[phil_20686]

trying to stop in 4m is an absurd use of a bid IMO.

In reality if partner has a weak hand and club support he will try to make a probe for 3N in case you are quite strong and the clubs are running.

Alternatively, some people play 3D as a moderate to good raise on this sequence.

[gnasher]

Quote

Alternatively, some people play 3D as a moderate to good raise on this sequence.

Playing 3♦ as artificial seems sensible, but it's wasteful for it to promise support. I think it's best used either as Stayman or as asking for major-suit stops. With a strong diamond raise, you'll usually be able to bid 3♦ followed by 4♦.

[fromageGB]

Without discussion, no defence to a multi, I think partner will assume it to be invitational. But (given that 3♣ should be a strong bid) I think with an invitational hand I will bid a guard in another suit(s), and if partner refuses to bid 3NT I can then bid 4♣ which must be invitational. So for an immediate 4♣, I think this suggests some clubs in support, some controls, and requests partner to make a slam move.

It depends of course on the meaning of 3♣. For me this is the strongest of the 3 ways to bid 3♣ and is almost game forcing. In this context, it is nonsense to have 4♣ as invitational, and therefore has to be a fit bid requesting partner to ask for my controls.

[FrancesHinden]

Without discussion it goes in the category of raises in competition being non-forcing, and therefore it's non-forcing.
I happen to play this as forcing in the two partnerships we've discussed it. I agree with gnasher that you should probably play 3D as artificial instead, but we never got that far. As for 'why', it's because you don't have an obvious cue bid available so you have to be able to bid something with a strong hand with club support.

[dake50]

What were 3D,3H,3S over 3C? How would they follow-up?
What's left is 4C.

[aguahombre]

Forget multi for a minute. Whatever the raise means is the same meaning as if there was a 3C overcall of a weak two. 3C is a very good overcall in our world.

We treat 4C as Minorwood for clubs. The jokes about Gerber aside, a single raise of the 3m overcall is only needed to invite game if the overcall itself is undisciplined (thus might as well be used for slam probe). "Approach forcing" applies for all non-jump advances of the 3C overcall.

Without discussion, Frances probably has it right. We have discussed.

[Phil]

Good problem and I think the only reasonable interpretation is that 4♣ is forcing.

Transfers seem to make a lot of sense here.

[gwnn]

Phil, on 2011-December-05, 22:15, said:

Good problem and I think the only reasonable interpretation is that 4♣ is forcing.

Transfers seem to make a lot of sense here.

Except you have four suits to transfer to.

[Ant590]

Thanks for all the replies.

On the hand, I assumed that it would be forcing in my partnership: clearly a mistake (whatever the "best" meaning is, it's clear that undiscussed this is dangerous), and we ended up with the good-old +170 (seven's on a finesse). Teammates took it surprisingly well - go team!

After discussion, 4♦ seemed to be an unused bid on this sequence that could be a forcing club raise, although I like Phil's ideas of transfers, and other Phil's use of 3♦ as various forcing hands.

Of course, the problem of finding a forcing raise is even worse when the overcall is 3M...

[gnasher]

gwnn, on 2011-December-06, 00:40, said:

Except you have four suits to transfer to.

That's not a problem:
3♦ = hearts
3♥ = spades
3♠ = to play 3NT from partner's side, or a forcing bid of 4m
3NT = to play
4m = non-forcing

Edit: If you play the major-suit transfers as game-forcing, they can be 4+ cards - opener jump-completes with four, completes at the three level with 3, and bids 3NT (or 3♠ over 3♦) with two.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-December-06, 04:57

[aguahombre]

Ant590, on 2011-December-06, 04:00, said:

Of course, the problem of finding a forcing raise is even worse when the overcall is 3M...

True, but 3M over 2D probably doesn't need a forcing raise.

[Cyberyeti]

gnasher, on 2011-December-05, 08:38, said:

Playing 3♦ as artificial seems sensible, but it's wasteful for it to promise support. I think it's best used either as Stayman or as asking for major-suit stops. With a strong diamond raise, you'll usually be able to bid 3♦ followed by 4♦.

Stayman should be unnecessary, as with clubs and a major it's pretty normal to pass over 2♦ then bid clubs second time after opener reveals his suit to show clubs and the other major.

[mcphee]

Not having a chat over this I would treat the raise as invitational. 3D should be a probe which allows room to locate 4-4 major fits. Same theory applies when partner opens 2C and uncontested your 2D response gets 3C from the strong hand. 3D leave you the required space to locate the 4-4 major.