[the hog]

Haveing a discussion about continuations in the following sequence
Partner opens 4D natural

You hold
xxx
AKx
Kxx
AKQx

It appears there are 2 views regarding a 4H bid - natural, or a cue in support of Ds.
If natural, how do you find if pd has 2 spade losers? If a cue, you can of course not play in 4M.
How do you treat this?

[aguahombre]

Using "two-under" preempts would allow for both, but we don't play them (except NAMYATS) and don't know anyone who does; so we have no solution and just have to pick one or the other agreement and live with it. Sometimes preempts work effectively against all three others.

Probably 4H natural would have a higher useful frequency.

[Onedown]

What is the vulnerability?...this needs to be known before any action can be taken....

Saying that I highly doubt we have slam and partner is going to take 4 ♥ as natural. I can pass or bid 5 ♦at the very best.
Depending on the vulnerability I could pass and hope my LHO takes some action. I doesn't matter what action as this is probably going to be our best plus. If they x and all pass we make 4 ♦and I may xx, then forcing them to go for a decent number Xd regardless of where they play.

[rduran1216]

I bid 6D. 5D is lol to me.

[aguahombre]

rduran1216, on 2011-September-20, 21:17, said:

I bid 6D. 5D is lol to me.

I don't think OP was asking about that.

[the hog]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-20, 21:20, said:

I don't think OP was asking about that.

I wasn't. Afa vul is concerned, well I deliberately did not post it, lets say vul. This still does not answer the question, however.

[dake50]

Fake 4S Q-bid, then 6D.
Partner deliberately chose to shut out 4M when he bid 4D.

[BunnyGo]

dake50, on 2011-September-20, 23:25, said:

Fake 4S Q-bid, then 6D.
Partner deliberately chose to shut out 4M when he bid 4D.

The OP's question is whether or not 4S *IS* a Q-bid. Maybe it is to play. He is not particularly interested in how this particular hand would be bid.

[mich-b]

4M response is natural - not a cue bid.
Playing the best game is more important than searching for Slam.

[Cyberyeti]

4M natural
4N keycard
5♣ I've got lots of side controls, don't worry about those but I have small singleton or void in diamonds, how's your suit for playing a slam ?

[Fluffy]

4♦ natural to me can't contain ♦A cos otherwise 3NT is wasted. I play too much MPs though.

I think 4M its natural.

[whereagles]

To figure out what's the better use of 4M you need to run some simulations and decide on that basis.

Playing it as natural you have no way to find out whether pard has spades controled or not, so you have to resort to judgement or perhaps some tactical bidding. You can also run a sim to figure out the odds of pard having a singleton spade. If it comes to more than 50%, you should take the flier

One final twist: I guess 4D-5C isn't defined in your system, so pard will probably take this as some sort of diamond support bid. He's likely to bid 5D now, but he might just have a spade void and bid 5S (I doubt he would bid that with a singleton). You won't find out whether he has a singleton but you'll bid a grand if he has a void.

[aguahombre]

whereagles, on 2011-September-21, 03:45, said:

One final twist: I guess 4D-5C isn't defined in your system, so pard will probably take this as some sort of diamond support bid. He's likely to bid 5D now, but he might just have a spade void and bid 5S (I doubt he would bid that with a singleton). You won't find out whether he has a singleton but you'll bid a grand if he has a void.

Wouldn't work well in this case if he had a heart void and did the same thing.

[han]

4M natural, which means you don't have the room to find out whether partner has a spade control. You can't have it all.

[whereagles]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-21, 04:33, said:

Wouldn't work well in this case if he had a heart void and did the same thing.

Indeed. It's a risk you have to weight.

Bidding 5C is also dangerous in another way... you're not guaranteed pard is on the same wavelength.

[gszes]

A lot depends on your definition of what
4d can mean if the range is anything from
xx x Axxxxxxx xx to x x QJxxxxxxxx x
its going to be difficult to come up with
any system that makes sense due to lack
of space and the danger of getting too
high. I prefer to promise A or K in the
suit I preempt. Having said this I offer
the following.

I think after 4m (4M natural) just aims
at too tiny a target. It would seem to
justify giving up this tiny target in
favor of safely searching how high we
can proceed in p 8+ card suit.

1. 4n asks for suit quality preemtor then:

signs off with less than 2 of top 3 honors
bid 6 with 2 of top 3 honors
bid 5n with 3 of top 4

2. 5n asks preemptor to bid 7 with the A
of the their suit.

if neither 1 nor 2 then

I propose the 4M and 4d (when p opens 4c)
and 5c bid be cue bids BUT not in the classic
sense but ASKING for the amount of help the
preemtor has in the suit bid. Preemtor uses
the following "steps" to show:


4n or 5n (use lowest) = singleton honor
5 of the opening minor = no control
5 (6 if clubs) of the suit bid = void
any other cue bid = void + an honor in suit bid

In conjuntion with this I propose a direct 5M
as asking the premptor to pass or bid 6 with
at least 2 trumps and a side singleton and to
cue bid a void.

This tool give the repsonder a ton of ways to get information
on a variety of hands as long as they have a trump fit and
logical continuations on very powerful hands with little or
no trump fit.

Let me go get my flak jacket:)

[dake50]

" The OP's question is whether or not 4S *IS* a Q-bid. Maybe it is to play. He is not particularly interested in how this particular hand would be bid. "

Again answer the question in my original post.
Did partner open 4D to ask for 4M natural???
ABSURD!!!!!!
Then why on earth am I choosing
4M to play contrary to partner????
He don't know what he is doing?? INSULTING!!!

[the hog]

dake50, on 2011-September-21, 22:33, said:

" The OP's question is whether or not 4S *IS* a Q-bid. Maybe it is to play. He is not particularly interested in how this particular hand would be bid. "

Again answer the question in my original post.
Did partner open 4D to ask for 4M natural???
ABSURD!!!!!!
Then why on earth am I choosing
4M to play contrary to partner????
He don't know what he is doing?? INSULTING!!!

Because you may hold:

KQJTxxxx
Ax
void
KQx

5D may well not make, and 4S looks a reasonable contract. That is why and that is why I asked.

[dake50]

"Because you may hold:
KQJTxxxx
Ax
void
KQx

5D may well not make, and 4S looks a reasonable contract.
That is why and that is why I asked." -- the hog

** So you are saying "if hands exist that fail
when partner chose to fix Diamonds and shut out Majors,
you choose a response system to NOT COOPERATE with partner??"

Still ABSURD! Systemically to not cooperate.
Still INSULTING! Partner can't be trusted.

[Phil]

I prefer that 4M is:

1. Kickback (4♥) or Natural (4♠)

2. Both natural

3. Asking bids

4. Cue bid

in that order.