[whereagles]

Hi all,

I was wondering whether the following auction, e.g.

1♥ 1♠
2♣ 3♠

or, in geek notation,

1x 1y
2z 3y (x>z, y>z)

is forcing in 2/1 or not. I know that in sayc it is and that in other systems (SEF, acol?) it is not. I was wondering if it is in 2/1. If so, how do you bid in invitational 1-suiters in 2/1 like

KQTxxx
xx
KJx
Qx

considering 4th suit is GF as well? (Give or take a jack to get what you consider to be an invitation.) Thx in advance.

[mgoetze]

There is no unified global 2/1 system. In my style, the auction you gave is forcing, and the hand you gave is bid 1♥-2♠.

[gwnn]

Nowadays many people use 2♠ as invitational. Those who do would bid 3♠ on a forcing hand. Those who play WJS instead would bid 2♠, constructive on some bad invitations and 3♠ (NF) on some real invitations.

[P_Marlowe]

For us, 3S would be inv.

We play WJS, but a WJS showes 4-7.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

I think the answer to this depends on other parts of your system:-

If you play SJS then 3S is invitational.
If you play IJS then 3S should be GF.
If you play WJS up to 9/10 then 3S should be GF
If you play weaker WJS then 3S is invitational (and strong 1-suited hands have to find an alternative route)

I think the reason this is invitational in all of the system you quote is simply because they use SJS. Overloading 4SF with hands that know where they are going is not really a good idea when there are tools available for an alternative. One of the aims of "more advanced" methods in these kinds of auctions is often to remove hands from 4SF sequences to make them more manageable.

[gwnn]

I really don't think it's possible to play WJS up to 9/10, is there anyone who does anything like that?

[mike777]

whereagles, on 2011-August-22, 03:42, said:

Hi all,

I was wondering whether the following auction, e.g.

1♥ 1♠
2♣ 3♠

or, in geek notation,

1x 1y
2z 3y (x>z, y>z)

is forcing in 2/1 or not. I know that in sayc it is and that in other systems (SEF, acol?) it is not. I was wondering if it is in 2/1. If so, how do you bid in invitational 1-suiters in 2/1 like

KQTxxx
xx
KJx
Qx

considering 4th suit is GF as well? (Give or take a jack to get what you consider to be an invitation.) Thx in advance.

3s is Inv


with a game force pard bids an artificial 2d


2s rebid is weaker.
---


your example hand is borderline for us between 2s weakish and 3s inv. I lean towards 2s.Change the TS to JS and I rebid 3s.

[kenberg]

As noted, "playing 2/1" is not a phrase with a well-defined meaning. And, also as noted, it depends on what other agreements you have.

I often suggest to partners that we adopt the following general principle: Unless we have decided otherwise by a specific agreement, all second round jumps by responder are invitational. Presumably one can think of exceptions where it is best to play otherwise, but this meta-agreement saves us a lot of confusion. So, if the auction begins 1♥-1♠-2♣ and I wish to bid a forcing 3♠ I must first bid a fsf 2♦.

If partners accept this meta-agreement I usually mention the following application, just so there is no confusion: 1♦-1♠-1NT-3♥ is, yes, invitational. 1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦-3♥ is forcing.

On another thread I mentioned a hand I held recently: Eight spades to the AKQJ, the Kx of hearts, doubleton trash in diamonds and a stiff club. Partner opened 1♥. What to do? There is no way that I can convince partner I have the spades that I have so probably the final decision will have to be mine. Anyway, some mentioned there that they play an agreement where 1♥-2♠ is a hand of invitational strength and, of course, a decent spade suit. Basically it is the hand that would produce, for me, the invit auction 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♠. Since they bid this as 1♥-2♠, then they can play 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♠ as forcing. I can see the pluses, I can see some minuses. At any rate, I certainly do not think that if someone says they play 2/1 then you can assume that they are playing this agreement. Maybe it's a good agreement, I plan to think about it.

[the hog]

3S is invitational. Others play it differently, see above.

Nuno, this might be hijacking the thread a bit, and is not the sequence you asked about, but you might like to consider the Gawrys convention:

Gawrys Third-suit


The convention applies to just one sequence:

1♦ 1♠

2♣ ?



2♥ = transfer to 2♠

2♠ = natural, constructive




This convention has two goals:

• to distinguish weak spade hands, with which we want to just play 2♠ and no higher, from invitational hands, still not sure of game if there is a misfit,
• to transpose painlessly into natural bidding with strong hands.

1) With about 10 HCP and at least 5 spades we bid 2♠. First, partner can without fear proceed with his suit or NT with a misfit for spades, since the combined strength is not a threat; secondly, we don’t have to invite game via 3♠, which may go down in a misfit. 2♠ therefore plays a role as a non-forcing but invitational bid..

Examples:

a) ♠ KJ5432 ♥ AJ2 ♦ 3 ♣ Q32 – without the convention we would have bid 3♠; now 2♠

b) ♠ KQT54 ♥ J32 ♦ Q2 ♣ QT2 – with the convention, no problems (2♠). without it?...



2) With a weak hand and long spades we rebid 2♥.

Examples:

a) ♠ KJT432 ♥ 543 ♦ -- ♣ J432

b) ♠ QJT9876 ♥ 32 ♦ 32 ♣ 32

Over this bid, partner is required to rebid 2♠, over which we will pass.



3) With all GF hands we rebid 2♥, Partner bids 2♠, and then we continue to bid naturally, without fear of partner passing:



1♦ 1♠

2♣ 2♥

2♠

2N = forcing (an earlier 2N would have been invitational) – can have 4 hearts

3♣ = forcing, natural

3♦ = forcing (an earlier 3♦ would have been invitational)

3♥ = forcing, 5-5 (an earlier 3♥ would have been invitational)

3♠ = forcing with spades (an earlier 3♠ would have been invitational with a very good suit)

Taken from Dan's website. WJ2005. I have played this in a 2/1 system and it works well.

[helene_t]

Is it really forcing in SAYC? I would expect it to be non-forcing in all systems with strong jump shifts (unless playing Pavlicek or similar methods).

[barmar]

Note that many who play SJS play that it's usually stronger than just a game force; google "soloway strong jump shift". If your hand is merely game forcing, you can use Fourth Suit Forcing and then rebid your suit.

But the general idea is that if you have some other way of showing a game force and 6 of your suit (either SJS or 4SF), the second-round jump should be invitational, since there's no other way to show that hand (as someone else mentioned, playing that a WJS can be a constructive hand seems unplayable).

[semeai]

It's invitational in SAYC. See the system booklet, page 4, under "subsequent bidding by responder." There they have the example 1H-1S;2D-2N/3D/3H/3S, 11-12 points, inviting game.

In some versions of Standard American, notably Pavlicek's (see here) it is played as forcing.

This auction and the choice of invitational or forcing is similar in basically all "natural" systems. Basically, without special agreements it depends on how you play fourth suit forcing. If 4sf is forcing 1-round and you agree that bidding it and then rebidding spades is invitational then the jump is forcing. If 4sf is forcing to game, you bid it and then rebid spades with a game forcing hand, so the jump is how to bid the invitational hand.

This isn't ideal, so there are some solutions/special agreements hinted at by others:

1a) Make 1H-2S (and 1x-2y, y>x) 6-10, i.e. a hand that traditionally would rebid 2S. Then there's never a need to bid 2S weak, so it can be invitational (or used for other fancier purposes). Then the jump to 3S is forcing, and bidding 4sf then spades shows less certainty about spades being trump and/or less slam interest.

1b) Make 1H-2S intermediate. Similarly this removes the invitational hand from the 4sf or jump rebid picture.

2a) In auctions like 1H-1S;2D (as opposed to 1H-1S;2C), you'd need to go all the way to 3C to bid 4sf, so putting invitational hands in 4sf isn't very playable. That suggests playing 3S as invitational. There are artificial fixes though, such as in this recent comment by Brad Moss at bridgewinners to this post:

Brad Moss said:

over 1h 1s 2d fred and i play 3c through 3h as invitational plus in the suit above and 3s = gf, no fit no stopper. obviously i am a fan of this approach.

2b) There are other things to play than 4sf, such as what the hog mentions, in some auctions. Sometimes there's enough space to keep something xyz-like so you can have an artificial bid for both your invitational and your forcing hands. For example, you could play 1H-1S;2C-2D as a puppet to 2H for invitational hands or a weak heart preference and 2H as artificial and game forcing. Then 3S should be game forcing and pure, as you've again found a home for the invitational hand. Martens suggests such things: see this post by inquiry.

[FrancesHinden]

barmar, on 2011-August-22, 10:11, said:

Note that many who play SJS play that it's usually stronger than just a game force; google "soloway strong jump shift". If your hand is merely game forcing, you can use Fourth Suit Forcing and then rebid your suit.

But the general idea is that if you have some other way of showing a game force and 6 of your suit (either SJS or 4SF), the second-round jump should be invitational, since there's no other way to show that hand (as someone else mentioned, playing that a WJS can be a constructive hand seems unplayable).

A popular way of playing weak jump shifts in England is to play

1♦ - 2♠ like a "light weak two" i.e. about 4-8
1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♠ is strongly constructive, about 9-12 with a 6-card suit (obv. some 12 HCPs with a 6-card suit will game force)
1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♠ is game forcing with a good suit (hands less certain about strain go via fourth suit)

If you want to read about this fleshed out in more detail and you are a member of the EBU, see the August edition of English Bridge (currently no articles have made it to the website, they are still on June).

[Lurpoa]

whereagles, on 2011-August-22, 03:42, said:

Hi all,

I was wondering whether the following auction, e.g.

1♥ 1♠
2♣ 3♠

or, in geek notation,

1x 1y
2z 3y (x>z, y>z)

is forcing in 2/1 or not. I know that in sayc it is and that in other systems (SEF, acol?) it is not. I was wondering if it is in 2/1. If so, how do you bid in invitational 1-suiters in 2/1 like

KQTxxx
xx
KJx
Qx

considering 4th suit is GF as well? (Give or take a jack to get what you consider to be an invitation.) Thx in advance.

♥ ♥ ♥

Dear ♥,
are you sure it is forcing in SAYC ? I would say, just 6card and inviting.......
It is also related to the agreements you use for 4SF.

This the kind of sequence you need to agree with P.

Lurp♥a.

♥ ♥ ♥

[whereagles]

Thx all. I see there's no "standard" agreement on this, though I realize there's a slight tendency at invitational. Stronger hands via 4SF, which allows responder to get a little bit more information before commiting to a suit.

[babalu1997]

gwnn, on 2011-August-22, 04:56, said:

I really don't think it's possible to play WJS up to 9/10, is there anyone who does anything like that?

the folks who open weak with 11 hcp and 2 aces?
/

[semeai]

gwnn, on 2011-August-22, 04:56, said:

I really don't think it's possible to play WJS up to 9/10, is there anyone who does anything like that

babalu1997, on 2011-August-23, 13:39, said:

the folks who open weak with 11 hcp and 2 aces?
/

This shouldn't be unplayable. Imagine you didn't play weak jump shifts. Spade hands up to 9/10 bid 1S..2S almost always. Now instead just have them bid 2S immediately. This only loses a bit versus standard without weak jump shifts, as e.g. the latter has the ability to reevaluate weak versus invitational after hearing opener's rebid.

Of course, Frances's 4-8 and 9-12 numbers sound better if you're just using 1S..2S as inv now.

You could instead use 1S..2S as something artificial and bid 3S with 11-12. For example in that bridgewinners thread I link above Josh Donn suggests 1S..2S as a lower 4th suit forcing (much better than 3C as 4th suit forcing) and claims to have played something like that.

[peachy]

In SAYC, the auction
1♥ 1♠
2♣ 3♠
is invitational.

I don't know where you got it that it would be forcing, the SAYC booklet/writeup clearly says it is invitational.

Of course you can play it as whatever you please, but keep SAYC out of it. Do the same (whatever you please) when playing 2/1 system, this auction would be the same in 2/1 (whatever the meaning you have assigned to a jump rebid in same suit by responder). My guesstimate is that at least in US, virtually everybody plays it as invitational.

[aguahombre]

peachy, on 2011-August-23, 20:18, said:

In SAYC, the auction
1♥ 1♠
2♣ 3♠
is invitational.

I don't know where you got it that it would be forcing, the SAYC booklet/writeup clearly says it is invitational.

Of course you can play it as whatever you please, but keep SAYC out of it.

Yep you can call it Standard, which is a general style, or something similar. But, as mentioned many times, SAYC (the yellow card) is not flexible. It is what is on the yellow card and what the booklet says it is.

[whereagles]

I belive I read it was forcing in some oficial SAYC booklet, but it was a document from like 10 years ago, so it might be outdated.