[kwic]

Hello, I don't materize ACOL at all so I have 2 questions for Experts

1° ) someone told me that her teacher wanted her to play (only 2 players bidding, 1NT 12-14):

1NT - 2♣ when she has 5-4 in majors and a weak hand

1NT - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♥ when she has 5-4 in majors and a strong hand (12HCP+)

I thaught you should have to bid 2♣ in both case and just bid your 5 cards major at the 3 level if opener's bid is 2♦, when you have a strong hand.

Can you tell me if her teacher wants her to play a "special" way or if it is a common one ?


2°) Another thing even more strange :

after a weak two opening (2♥ or 2♠), 2NT is an asking bid to shortage, and he wants her to bid her singleton at
the 3 level (not a feature at the 3 level, and singleton at the 4 level).

Again, is it a special way to play or just common ?

Thank you

[mgoetze]

kwic, on 2011-August-19, 11:16, said:

Can you tell me if her teacher wants her to play a "special" way or if it is a common one ?

I can't speak for ACOL but in strong NT systems it is common to bid 2♣ with any strength of 5-4 majors hand.

Quote

after a weak two opening (2♥ or 2♠), 2NT is an asking bid to shortage, and he wants her to bid her singleton at
the 3 level (not a feature at the 3 level, and singleton at the 4 level).

This is a relatively modern way to play which is gaining popularity with stronger players. Hereabouts it is even more common for 2♥-2♠ to ask for the singleton and 2♥-2NT to show spades.

[Zelandakh]

1) In traditional Acol it was normal for 2M after a Stayman negative to be weak and 3M to be invitational. This was usually combined with 3D for GF hands. This method is no longer common.

2) The most common meaning for 2NT over a weak 2 in England is Ogust. Using it to ask for a singleton is highly unusual for beginners or intermediates.

[TMorris]

I'd agree

1) is quite normal - if you get a 2 ♦ response you obviously just bid your 5-card major as a sign off
2) is very rare - I have never seen it

[kwic]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-19, 12:48, said:

2) The most common meaning for 2NT over a weak 2 in England is Ogust. Using it to ask for a singleton is highly unusual for beginners or intermediates.

I play the French system. I have learnt a bit about SAYC and a lot about French system, but in both cases, you never show a singleton at the 3 level after a weak-2.

I have a very weak knowlwedge about the ACOL system, but I know how bridge works, and I found very strange to bid the singleton at the 3 level instead of a feature.
Though, I just wanted to know if it was a common play in the ACOL system, or if her teacher is not that good...

[mgoetze]

kwic, on 2011-August-20, 12:23, said:

but I know how bridge works, and I found very strange to bid the singleton at the 3 level instead of a feature.

Whatever, dude. At least you're up-front about why you're here.

[Quantumcat]

kwic, on 2011-August-20, 12:23, said:

I have a very weak knowlwedge about the ACOL system, but I know how bridge works, and I found very strange to bid the singleton at the 3 level instead of a feature.

It just depends on whether responder wants to find a suit contract or a notrump contract. If notrump, he wants a feature, if suit, he wants a shortage. Whichever you choose makes one type of responder happy and the other unhappy (because he's not getting a useful piece of info).

In my opinion, when you open a weak two, you are saying that your hand looks like you should be playing in a trump contract. Most of the time, responder won't have a good reason to disagree* so showing a shortage is better.


*To play in a no-trump contract after partner has opened a weak two, you would want either a very strong flat hand without support (which can take 8 or 9 tricks on its own, since without a good fit your partner's suit may not run) or a medium hand with a good fit in partner's suit. The second option is risky, you'd only want to try it in matchpoints, since with a decent fit, you won't have too many trump losers, so you may as well guarantee that their suit will be tricks by making it trump.

[helene_t]

It has nothing to do with Acol. Acol is not a system but rather a loose set of principles on which to build a system. If you just agree with your partner to play Acol it is not clear if you play weak twos at all, nuch less how you respond to them.

Where I have played, most play Ogust. Many play feature but I am not sure if everybody mean the same when they say "feature".

[SimonFa]

helene_t, on 2011-August-21, 01:18, said:

It has nothing to do with Acol. Acol is not a system but rather a loose set of principles on which to build a system. If you just agree with your partner to play Acol it is not clear if you play weak twos at all, nuch less how you respond to them.

Where I have played, most play Ogust. Many play feature but I am not sure if everybody mean the same when they say "feature".

What Helen says. A previous partner liked to play feature so he could see if he had access to the long suit. Current partner prefers Ogust. Can't say I find one any better with than the other.

[Wackojack]

kwic, on 2011-August-19, 11:16, said:

Hello, I don't materize ACOL at all so I have 2 questions for Experts

1° ) someone told me that her teacher wanted her to play (only 2 players bidding, 1NT 12-14):

1NT - 2♣ when she has 5-4 in majors and a weak hand

1NT - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♥ when she has 5-4 in majors and a strong hand (12HCP+)

I thaught you should have to bid 2♣ in both case and just bid your 5 cards major at the 3 level if opener's bid is 2♦, when you have a strong hand.

Can you tell me if her teacher wants her to play a "special" way or if it is a common one ?


Thank you

The unanswered question so far is what to do with 5-4 majors and strong hand. I don't think your teacher's way is common. 1NT - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♥ is more common to show 5-5. Bidding 2♣and then over 2♦ you jump in the 5 card major is more common. However, use of a convention called Smolem where you jump in the 4 card major is common particularly outside Acol land. This has the advantage of placing the balanced hand as declarer thus incresing the chance of the contract being right sided.

[Cyberyeti]

Wackojack, on 2011-August-23, 10:45, said:

The unanswered question so far is what to do with 5-4 majors and strong hand. I don't think your teacher's way is common. 1NT - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♥ is more common to show 5-5. Bidding 2♣and then over 2♦ you jump in the 5 card major is more common. However, use of a convention called Smolem where you jump in the 4 card major is common particularly outside Acol land. This has the advantage of placing the balanced hand as declarer thus incresing the chance of the contract being right sided.

In the US where people play a strong no trump, if you have 16 opposite 10 then having the balanced hand as declarer is good as it's likely to have more points and thus more tenaces. It's not per se having the balanced hand as declarer, it's having the strong hand as declarer.

In Acol land where the weak no trump is more common, Smolen is much less common as the tenaces are as likely to be in one hand as the other.

1N-2♥-2♠-3♥ is quite commonly used for 5-4, we use 1N-4♦ as 5-5 majors to play or a strong slam invite plus, with 1N-2♥-2♠-3♥-3N-4♥ as the mild slam invite.

[Vampyr]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-23, 14:54, said:

1N-2♥-2♠-3♥ is quite commonly used for 5-4, we use 1N-4♦ as 5-5 majors to play or a strong slam invite plus, with 1N-2♥-2♠-3♥-3N-4♥ as the mild slam invite.

We play similar methods, except that 1NT-4♣ shows 5-5 majors (5♦ is a transfer to hearts).

[Wackojack]

Yes, the OP wanted to know what was common and what was "special" I tried to answer what was common. The "special" treatments are endless.

[gordontd]

Wackojack, on 2011-August-24, 05:33, said:

Yes, the OP wanted to know what was common and what was "special" I tried to answer what was common. The "special" treatments are endless.

Your view of what is common in Acol-land does not correspond with mine.

[Wackojack]

gordontd, on 2011-August-24, 06:30, said:

Your view of what is common in Acol-land does not correspond with mine.

I would be interested to know what your view is then.

Elaborating:

The EBU Standard English Acol which was designed as a "bridge for all" basic system says: INT-2♣-2♦-3♥/3♠ = 5 card suit, 4 in other major game forcing. However "Standard English" has many aspects that most Acol players have dropped,or never taken to, notably strong 2's. Instead Benjaminised Acol with weak 2's in the majors or 3 weak 2's have largely been adopted. The YC club in London has adopted Acol 3 weak 2's for its standard convention card. It plays 3 weak 2's 12-14 no trump with 4 suit transfers. It does not go into what to do with 5-4.

Away from Acol-land, BBO basic plays the same as Standard English for game forcing major 5-4s, and 1NT-♥-2♠-3♥ shows 5-5. BBO Adv reverses the 5-4 with the Smolem convention.

The problem with playing 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥ as not excluding 5-4 is that with 5-5 you are not able to show slam interest when partner bids 3NT. Possibly another is if 1NT is opened with 2245 distribution opposite a 55 major hand. Of course the odds of this type of problem coming up is very remote.

[Cyberyeti]

Wackojack, on 2011-August-25, 04:51, said:

The problem with playing 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥ as not excluding 5-4 is that with 5-5 you are not able to show slam interest when partner bids 3NT. Possibly another is if 1NT is opened with 2245 distribution opposite a 55 major hand. Of course the odds of this type of problem coming up is very remote.

It's no problem at all, you just have to have another bid for the 5-5 and agree what it is.

Any of 1N-4♣/♦ and 1N-2♣-2♦-4♥ can be used for 5-5 hands with/without slam interest with 1N-2♥-2♠-3♥-3N-4♥ for the other one. You can also decide that 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠-?-3♠ shows 5-5 rather than 5-6 in the majors.

I don't think any one of these is standard, but a lot of people use one of them. I'm really not sure there is a standard here.

[Zelandakh]

I am currently using 1NT - 4C as 5-5 majors, either without slam interest or willing to ask key cards over any 4M response; 1NT - 2H - 2S - 3H as 5-5 invitational; and 1NT - 2C - 2D - 3C - 3D - 4C as a slam try with 5-5 (where 2C is puppet, 2D denies a 5 card major, 3C shows 4-4 or better majors GF, and 3D shows 1 or both 3 card majors). This is clearly not close to any standard!