[aguahombre]

For instance, the auction starts:

(2x) 2NT....where 2x is a weak two in that suit and 2NT is what it is.

There is a difference of opinion among A/E people who normally play systems on whether it applies or is necessary under the given conditions.

The alternative, of course, would be the old approach-forcing style where new suits are forcing and natural.

It seems to me there are too many trade-offs with system on --which might allow us to get out in exactly 3 of a major --- as opposed to the convenience of being able to show other suits naturally before (and after) bypassing 3NT. It also seems that "right-siding" might be less important.

But, what are the other arguments for or against the two approaches?

[JLOGIC]

I do not know of any experts who believe new suits should be natural and forcing here. I assumed they had all died.

I thought the 2nd approach would be 3C puppet to 3D, and 3D inv+ in the other major.

[awm]

aguahombre, on 2011-July-09, 11:07, said:

For instance, the auction starts:

(2x) 2NT....where 2x is a weak two in that suit and 2NT is what it is.

There is a difference of opinion among A/E people who normally play systems on whether it applies or is necessary under the given conditions.

The alternative, of course, would be the old approach-forcing style where new suits are forcing and natural.

It seems to me there are too many trade-offs with system on --which might allow us to get out in exactly 3 of a major --- as opposed to the convenience of being able to show other suits naturally before (and after) bypassing 3NT. It also seems that "right-siding" might be less important.

But, what are the other arguments for or against the two approaches?

I don't think playing suits as forcing and natural is a very good approach here. Wanting to sign off somewhere is not infrequent, especially since 2NT is not all that strong a call (i.e. it's more like a 1NT opening, which often fails to lead to a game than a 2NT opening). While you can have a slam after this start, there is a tendency for bad breaks and for opener not being broke, making slam somewhat less likely than after 1NT-Pass. There is also a fairly significant "right-siding" advantage since most of the opposing values tend to be to the left of 2NT bidder (i.e. the person who didn't open a weak bid).

With that said, "systems on" is not a great approach either. It has the advantage of being easy to remember and right-siding many contracts, but your "transfer to opponents suit" for example is virtually useless. Nonetheless if asked to choose between "bids natural/forcing" and "systems on" I would (and do in most partnerships) choose "systems on."

Technically better would be a method tuned to the particular situation. I like a method where all three-level suit bids are transfers. The transfer into the opposing suit acts as stayman (i.e. shows the other major if they bid a major). This lets you get out in 3♦ which can be useful, while right-siding all contracts.

[helene_t]

If you don't play transfers then 3y has to be nonforcing. So when you have a gf hand with a 5-card major you will have to chose between 4M and 3NT.

On the other hand, playing system on can't be optimal either. Say they open 2♥. 3♥ now as a transfer to spades is of course useful, but I think 3m is best used as "to play". Then 3♠ can be stayman.

Also, since the 2NT overcall has a wider range than a 2NT opening it is useful to be able to invite. When they open 2♠ you could play
3♣= hearts, any strength. Now overcaller can use 3♦ and 3♥ to distinguish between a hand that would accept an invite and one that wouldn't.
3♦=to play
3♥=minor suit stayman?
3♠=stayman

[Phil]

Either play 2N systems on, or play transfers starting with 3♣. Transfer to their suit is stayman.

Agree, then move on.

[FrancesHinden]

There are certainly better methods than 'system on' but playing new suits as forcing & natural isn't one of them.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Mike Lawrence suggests ( in his book on Balancing ) having Advancer use the Wolff Sign-off .
He said it can be used for partner's 2NT overcall whether in direct seat
or balancing seat
When Advancer bids 3C! it is a relay for partner to always bid 3D.
Advancer then describes his hand.
Alternate hand descriptions by Advancer are the direct 3-level
bids which carry a different meaning than the indirect route.

In other words there are TWO ways to get to 3D/3H/3S and 3NT.

Note:
1) Transfers are NOT employed... except for the 3C! >> relay to 3D!
Advancer bid of 3oM is natural showing 5+ cds in the other Major.

2) The cuebid is "Stayman" for the other Major-- 2 routes for Stayman:
-- The direct route shows shortness in opps' major;
-- The relay ( indirect ) route implies a more balanced hand.

3) The relay route to 3NT shows a good hand w/Cl suit:
2M - 2NT - p - 3C!
   p - 3D! - p - 3NT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For example:
2S - 2NT - p - 3C! ( always relays to 3D! )
p - 3D! ( forced) - ??

pass = weak hand but Diam suit
3H = weak hand but Ht suit ( for pass)
4C = weak hand but Cl suit ( for pass)

3S! = 4 cds Hts implying balanced hand ( no Sp shortness), GF
3NT = good hand with Cl suit
4NT = slammish with Cl suit

And:
2S - 2NT - p - ??

3D = good hand with Diam suit, GF
3H = good hand with 5+ cd Ht suit, GF
3S! = 4 cds Hts implying STIFF Sp, GF
3NT = good hand for game but no long Cl suit as in the relay route
4C = He doesn't assign anything but I'd reserve this for Gerber.
4NT = Quantitative, but no long Cl suit as in relay route

[olien]

Agree with Justin. I've played this way and it is very useful. It also creates a few extra sequences where R can express minor-suit slam interest while staying at/below 3NT and you can also get out in 3♦.

[Onedown]

I like to play the following:
- systems on
- xfer to their suit shows shortness and g/f, no 4 card major
- 3♠ = xfer to 4♣, 4♣ xfer to 4♦...good way to get out when responder is bust with some 6-7 card minor
- When they bid 2♠ and we want to show a non forcing ♥hand, bid 3c followed by 3♥ or pass if opener bids 3♥; Invitational ♥ hands bid 3♦ xfer..this can also be a big ♦ hand and you will correct next bid. To force in ♥ bid 3♥with 5 0r 5+ with extras, or use Texas to play.