Think we have just enough room to relay sensibly over our 1D opening. I'm wondering what the best practice is for making use of it. For instance, if I hold...
AKxxx xxx x AKxx
I'll definitely want to show spades and not relay opener's hand.
If I have...
AKxx xxx Axxx Kx
I think I would want to relay.
What if I have...
AKxx xx AKxxx xx
relay again or show the spades now? I would think show the spades
What do folks who use 1D-1N as a GF relay do with 1D-2m?
I would think 2C would be to play (especially as our 1D is nebulous) and 1D-2D would handle all or most invitational hands with minors. Perhaps 1D-3C would be GI now
Also, here's how we might relay 1D-1N in case anyone has suggestions for improvements...
1D-1N
2C-both minors
2D-4432s and 4333s and 4M5C22
2H-3-suited short major or 5m332s
2S-4H/5D
2N-3-suited short minor
3C-4S/5D, short hearts
etc
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1D-1N relay
#2
Posted 2011-January-16, 22:57
I know that the Granovetters used to play a structure where 1♦-1NT was the GFR.
Their 1NT opening denied a 4-card major, and if their 1♦ opening was balanced, it included atleast one 4-card major. After 1♦ - 1NT, I know that the general idea was as below.
After 1♦-1NT:
2♣ = balanced hand, atleast 1 4-card major
2♦+ = unbalanced hands.
I agree that this structure may be best if you can put all of your balanced hands into one bid over 1NT. Maybe a structure like this:
2♣ = any balanced hand or 4M-5C-22
2♦ = both minors (not 5+/5+)
2♥ = 4♥ 5+♦ or 3-suited both majors
2♠ = 4♠ 5+♦
2NT = (04)(54)
3♣ = (41)44
3♦ = 5+/5+ minors, short ♠
3♥ = 11(65)
3♠+ = 5+/5+ minors, short ♥
Not sure what you do with 4+♦ 6+♣, but anyways:
1♦ - 1NT// 2♦ - 2♥:
2♠ = 4♦ 5+♣
2NT = 5+♦ 4♣, 0-1♠
3♣ = 5+♦ 4♣, equal short
3♦ and higher = 5+♦ 4♣, 0-1♥
If you open 4♦ 6+♣ with 2♣, could even play the 2♦ re-bid as 5+♦ 4♣ or 4X-5♣-22, and use something like this:
1♦ - 1NT// 2♦ - 2♥// 2♠ - 2NT:
3♣ = 4M-5♣-22
3♦ = 1=3=4=5
3♥ = 2=2=4=5
3♠ and higher = 3=1=4=5
Also, if you open 2♣ with 4♦-6+♣, and use this possible change, takes even more load off of the 2♣ re-bid and limits that to strictly 4432s, 4333s, and 5m(332)s.
1♦ - 1NT// 2♥ - 2♠:
2NT = 44(41) or 44(50)
---> 3♦ = 4414 or 4405, 3♥ = 4441, 3♠ and higher = 4450
3♣ and higher = 4♥ 5+♦
1♦ - 1NT// 2NT - 3♣:
3♦ = 04(54)
3♥ = 4=0=4=5
3♠ and higher = 4=0=5=4
1♦ - 1NT// 3♣ - 3♦:
3♥ = 1=4=4=4
3♠ and higher = 4=1=4=4
I don't know if this is what you're going for, but seems relatively symmetric and I believe that separating balanced hands from unbalanced hands as quickly as possible is best. Also, if it goes 1♦ - 1NT// 2♣ (balanced), then you can treat responder's non-relay bids as showing various minor suit GF bids and that takes the load off of 1♦ - 2m and allows the balanced hand to possibly ask more about responder's hand, probably best to restrict these to 1-suited minor or 2-suited with both minors. Hope this helps.
Regards
Their 1NT opening denied a 4-card major, and if their 1♦ opening was balanced, it included atleast one 4-card major. After 1♦ - 1NT, I know that the general idea was as below.
After 1♦-1NT:
2♣ = balanced hand, atleast 1 4-card major
2♦+ = unbalanced hands.
I agree that this structure may be best if you can put all of your balanced hands into one bid over 1NT. Maybe a structure like this:
2♣ = any balanced hand or 4M-5C-22
2♦ = both minors (not 5+/5+)
2♥ = 4♥ 5+♦ or 3-suited both majors
2♠ = 4♠ 5+♦
2NT = (04)(54)
3♣ = (41)44
3♦ = 5+/5+ minors, short ♠
3♥ = 11(65)
3♠+ = 5+/5+ minors, short ♥
Not sure what you do with 4+♦ 6+♣, but anyways:
1♦ - 1NT// 2♦ - 2♥:
2♠ = 4♦ 5+♣
2NT = 5+♦ 4♣, 0-1♠
3♣ = 5+♦ 4♣, equal short
3♦ and higher = 5+♦ 4♣, 0-1♥
If you open 4♦ 6+♣ with 2♣, could even play the 2♦ re-bid as 5+♦ 4♣ or 4X-5♣-22, and use something like this:
1♦ - 1NT// 2♦ - 2♥// 2♠ - 2NT:
3♣ = 4M-5♣-22
3♦ = 1=3=4=5
3♥ = 2=2=4=5
3♠ and higher = 3=1=4=5
Also, if you open 2♣ with 4♦-6+♣, and use this possible change, takes even more load off of the 2♣ re-bid and limits that to strictly 4432s, 4333s, and 5m(332)s.
1♦ - 1NT// 2♥ - 2♠:
2NT = 44(41) or 44(50)
---> 3♦ = 4414 or 4405, 3♥ = 4441, 3♠ and higher = 4450
3♣ and higher = 4♥ 5+♦
1♦ - 1NT// 2NT - 3♣:
3♦ = 04(54)
3♥ = 4=0=4=5
3♠ and higher = 4=0=5=4
1♦ - 1NT// 3♣ - 3♦:
3♥ = 1=4=4=4
3♠ and higher = 4=1=4=4
I don't know if this is what you're going for, but seems relatively symmetric and I believe that separating balanced hands from unbalanced hands as quickly as possible is best. Also, if it goes 1♦ - 1NT// 2♣ (balanced), then you can treat responder's non-relay bids as showing various minor suit GF bids and that takes the load off of 1♦ - 2m and allows the balanced hand to possibly ask more about responder's hand, probably best to restrict these to 1-suited minor or 2-suited with both minors. Hope this helps.
Regards
#3
Posted 2011-January-17, 00:36
I'd be somewhat concerned here about what to do with fairly balanced responder hands not including a four-card major (i.e. 3343, 3334, (32)44) with constructive but less than invite values. Passing a 1♦ opening that doesn't show four doesn't really appeal. A 1NT contract could easily be your last playable spot.
I've considered 1NT as GF relay in this sequence, but only opposite a natural (4+) unbalanced 1♦. In that case a diamond contract should be playable on the above hand types and you can take your choice of passing or raising. Then I like 2♣ natural (sort of wide ranging), 2♦ as NF, 2N as a natural invite (implicitly 4+♣, no other suit), 3♣ as an invitational diamond raise and 3♦ as preemptive.
If you want to play relays over a short 1♦, you pretty much need to either use 2♣ as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1♥ as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).
I've considered 1NT as GF relay in this sequence, but only opposite a natural (4+) unbalanced 1♦. In that case a diamond contract should be playable on the above hand types and you can take your choice of passing or raising. Then I like 2♣ natural (sort of wide ranging), 2♦ as NF, 2N as a natural invite (implicitly 4+♣, no other suit), 3♣ as an invitational diamond raise and 3♦ as preemptive.
If you want to play relays over a short 1♦, you pretty much need to either use 2♣ as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1♥ as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#4
Posted 2011-January-17, 00:46
awm, on 2011-January-17, 00:36, said:
If you want to play relays over a short 1♦, you pretty much need to either use 2♣ as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1♥ as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).
I was informed that a 1♥ response as "hearts or relay" is super-chart, but maybe Mr. Beye was wrong on that front also. Anyways, agree with the 1♦ needing to be unbalanced 4+ if playing 1NT as GFR, but the Granovetter's played it this way and a 1♥ response was "waiting" over 1♦ (which had to have a 4-card major if balanced), then 1♠=4♠ and 1NT=balanced with 4♥ over the 1♥ reply.
#5
Posted 2011-January-17, 21:01
awm, on 2011-January-17, 00:36, said:
I'd be somewhat concerned here about what to do with fairly balanced responder hands not including a four-card major (i.e. 3343, 3334, (32)44) with constructive but less than invite values. Passing a 1♦ opening that doesn't show four doesn't really appeal. A 1NT contract could easily be your last playable spot.
I've considered 1NT as GF relay in this sequence, but only opposite a natural (4+) unbalanced 1♦. In that case a diamond contract should be playable on the above hand types and you can take your choice of passing or raising. Then I like 2♣ natural (sort of wide ranging), 2♦ as NF, 2N as a natural invite (implicitly 4+♣, no other suit), 3♣ as an invitational diamond raise and 3♦ as preemptive.
If you want to play relays over a short 1♦, you pretty much need to either use 2♣ as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1♥ as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).
I've considered 1NT as GF relay in this sequence, but only opposite a natural (4+) unbalanced 1♦. In that case a diamond contract should be playable on the above hand types and you can take your choice of passing or raising. Then I like 2♣ natural (sort of wide ranging), 2♦ as NF, 2N as a natural invite (implicitly 4+♣, no other suit), 3♣ as an invitational diamond raise and 3♦ as preemptive.
If you want to play relays over a short 1♦, you pretty much need to either use 2♣ as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1♥ as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).
We're definitely using the nebulous 1D. With the patterns 3343, 3334, (32)44 we would have to respond in a major. As opener is required to raise with three and shortness, we would occasionally wind up in 3-3 fits. This seems like it would be infrequent to me, but I haven't looked at hands yet. Is this very bad?
1D-2C as GF relay doesn't leave enough room.
I think 1D-2C has to be clubs nf but wide-ranging
1D-2D needs to handle most of the invitational hands (we use 1D-2N as weak minors).
I forgot in my first post to include the patterns with 5 clubs and 4M. We might hide the (42)25 with the balanced hands, but we need to be able to show 4-1-3-5 etc.
Olien asked something about 6m/4m hands. We open those 2m.
1D-1N
.....2C-minors (this can also handle the (41)-3-5s....they would substitute for the 6m4m21 hand pattern since this hand pattern opens 2m and not 1D)
.....2D-bal (4432 or 4333 or 5C4M22)
.....2H-3-suited
.....2S-4H/5D
.....2N-5m332
.....3C-4S/5D, higher
Can anyone improve on this?
hm...
.....2C-bal
..........2H-5C332 or 5C4M22
.....2D-minors
.....2H-3-suited
..........2N-minor shortage
...............3D-diamond shortage
....................3S-4-4-1-4
....................3N-4-4-0-5
..........3C-spade shortage
..........3D-4-1-4-4
..........3H-4-0-4-5
..........3S-4-0-5-4
.....2S-4H/5D
.....2N-(41)-3-5 or (43)-1-5
..........3D-1-4-3-5
..........3H-4-1-3-5
..........3S-3-4-1-5
..........3N-4-3-1-5
.....3C-4S/5D, higher
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