[FrancesHinden]

mikeh, on 2010-December-20, 15:33, said:

BBO charges, I believe, for doing vugraph.....I think Fred has said BBO doesn't make any profit from itand I trust him implicitly, but it is still a money-generating (as opposed to profit generating) service, that depends for its availability on lots of volunteer effort...I suspect that there are employees of or consultants to BBO who have been paid for their input into enabling BBO to run the vugraph. I don't see why I should refuse to commentate vugraph merely because I think someone somehow got paid for their involvement.

No, it doesn't

[Phil]

If the BIL manager was skimming a substantial income for a non-profit enterprise where volunteers where sought to provide free services, then I might object. Or I might not.

To me, it comes down to level of fairness with other individuals that run other bridge-related organizations, the time involved, and the impact on the game.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on 2010-December-20, 15:49, said:

No, it doesn't

Thanks....I had thought there was some cost, insufficient to cover expenses...I am even more impressed by it being entirely free...since clearly someone (or someones) entitled to recompense has worked on and presumably continues to work on the software and hosting, etc.

[wank]

mikeh, on 2010-December-20, 15:53, said:

Thanks....I had thought there was some cost, insufficient to cover expenses...I am even more impressed by it being entirely free...since clearly someone (or someones) entitled to recompense has worked on and presumably continues to work on the software and hosting, etc.

well, not really. assuming they don't get paid for it and lose money on it directly, it's still fantastic advertising for BBO. EBU, ACBL, USBF etc, display BBO's details on their homepages directing their members to the site for the vugraph on their events.

[mgoetze]

mikeh, on 2010-December-20, 15:33, said:

But if mentoring meant spending say 3-5 hours a week, while running the BIL meant 25-40 hours a week....and if mentoring was a commitment that didn't extend more than a few weeks at a time, while running the BIL was a year-round job....then I have zero problem with the people who set up and spend (a lot) of their time making some money at it while depending on volunteers to do much if not all of the mentoring.

Sure, I'm not saying this would be unreasonable. But I would expect the organiser to be up-front about this and not claim to be unpaid while secretly stashing the money in their private account. I think it is not unreasonable to ask where the money is going if you are being asked to volunteer.

Furthermore, I think it is an important aspect just because people will have different expectations when they are paying for something. Unfortunately, the level of expectation isn't often correlated to the amount they are paying. I observe this all the time at work: people who are paying 1000 bucks per month for a cluster of dedicated servers are often much more relaxed about problems than people paying 99 cents per month for the most basic webhosting package.

[gnasher]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-20, 16:48, said:

Sure, I'm not saying this would be unreasonable. But I would expect the organiser to be up-front about this and not claim to be unpaid while secretly stashing the money in their private account.

So would I, if that was what she was doing. On the other hand, maybe she claims to be unpaid because she is, in fact, unpaid?

Quote

I think it is not unreasonable to ask where the money is going if you are being asked to volunteer.

If that was all you'd done, it might be reasonable, if you were seriously considering volunteering.

What you actually said was, "Let me get this straight... we are supposed to volunteer our time while BIL rakes in the cash?" I suppose that is technically a question, but it doesn't sound as though you were seeking further information before deciding whether to offer your services as a mentor.

[mgoetze]

gnasher, on 2010-December-20, 17:21, said:

If that was all you'd done, it might be reasonable, if you were seriously considering volunteering.

What you actually said was, "Let me get this straight... we are supposed to volunteer our time while BIL rakes in the cash?" I suppose that is technically a question, but it doesn't sound as though you were seeking further information before deciding whether to offer your services as a mentor.

Yes, I would have thought it's clear that I'm not considering it very seriously. One of the reasons is that, as I just mentioned, payment creates expectations regardless of where the money is going and how much it is. Another is that I consider myself to be at the very lowest tier of the "advanced" level. On the other hand, I am truly fascinated by these "considerable costs involved in administering the BIL" because I really cannot imagine what they are if not compensating people for the time spent.

So if you are saying that I don't deserve an answer you are absolutely correct.

[donnas]

Last year, I participated in the 2010 Marathon. Since then, I've volunteered to be part of the Special Events Team. I DO get paid.
I get paid in laughs and friendship. I've met so many interesting people - and interacting with those on the SET has been a joy.
I also had a mentor last year - Peter Brennan. Peter is known as BILFriend1 - and that is an apt name. His patience and humor help all who play with him.

Judging by the dates/times/numbers of emails from Maureen, she has a great deal of time and energy invested in the BIL. Her 'dividends' are seeing players learn and improve.

Oh - I did win a contest, and was able to download a free e-book. Someone did have to pay for it, however.

If you take the time to stop making rude, unsupported remarks and read Maureen Hall's comment elsewhere in the Advanced and Expert-Class Bridge section, you will discover that many memberships are subsidized. As a member of SET and, now as a BIL graduate, I do not pay a fee. But in the past month, I was able to play and listen to the advice of Mike Lawrence, and also watch other world-class people play and discuss hands. The cost of this is, in my opinion, priceless, and I would be happy to pay a yearly fee.

As for expenses - again, Maureen has explained some of the costs, etc. associated with the BIL.

Perhaps some of you are just ranting because it's your nature.
Some might be doing it so that they can justify not volunteering to help other players.
Others might not understand how BIL is run.

I can only hope that some of you will realize that there are many players - of all ages and nationalities - who enjoy BBO and BIL - and will want to join in the fun.

Maybe some of you can make a new year's resolution (even if you didn't participate in the BIL New Year's Resolution Contest) to do more to improve bridge - either by mentoring or just by being more considerate of others.

[han]

Folks, it's Christmas Eve! If Jesus was reading this thread today, he would turn over in his grave.

[cherdano]

han, on 2010-December-24, 18:05, said:

Folks, it's Christmas Eve! If Jesus was reading this thread today, he would turn over in his grave.

Wrong Holiday.

[TwstofLime]

Amazingly, some of these posts are meant to be clever, not unkind.

[qwery_hi]

Fantastic advertising is overstating it. The best advertising for BBO is IMO word of mouth, I think I told about 6 people about BBO while I was in New Orleans last year, and some of them are my friends on BBO now.

In fact, if anyone is getting a free ride, IMO it is the ACBL and all the other organizations whose stated goal is promoting bridge, while it is Fred and BBO that have made the most significant innovations in promoting and popularizing bridge in the past 100 years.

wank, on 2010-December-20, 15:58, said:

well, not really. assuming they don't get paid for it and lose money on it directly, it's still fantastic advertising for BBO. EBU, ACBL, USBF etc, display BBO's details on their homepages directing their members to the site for the vugraph on their events.

[Bbradley62]

han, on 2010-December-24, 18:05, said:

Folks, it's Christmas Eve! If Jesus was reading this thread today, he would turn over in his grave.

You mean the one he was only in for three days?