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Aggressive partner, expert opponents, playing 2/1. Partner's double is penalty. Pass or pull?
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Pass or pull
#1
- Tubthumper
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Posted 2008-June-12, 00:39
Aggressive partner, expert opponents, playing 2/1. Partner's double is penalty. Pass or pull?
Chris Gibson
#2 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-June-12, 00:40
Can't imagine playing this as penalty, but if I did this looks like an easy pass given that I have 2 trumps, a king, and a stiff in partner's suit.
#3
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Posted 2008-June-12, 00:43
Jlall, on Jun 11 2008, 11:40 PM, said:
Can't imagine playing this as penalty, but if I did this looks like an easy pass given that I have 2 trumps, a king, and a stiff in partner's suit.
What would you normally play double as there? Extras with no clear direction and convertible values?
Chris Gibson
#4 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-June-12, 00:47
CSGibson, on Jun 12 2008, 01:43 AM, said:
Jlall, on Jun 11 2008, 11:40 PM, said:
Can't imagine playing this as penalty, but if I did this looks like an easy pass given that I have 2 trumps, a king, and a stiff in partner's suit.
What would you normally play double as there? Extras with no clear direction and convertible values?
Yep and takeout oriented. A hand with 3 spades and extras would be common, but a doubleton spade would definitely be possible as well. I would like to be able to double with: 3415, 3316, 3226, 2326, 2425, 3325, 3136 and 2335, 3235 no stopper when I have extra values. I could think of some 2416 hands I would X with as well (but would often bid 3H with that shape).
It seems like a penalty X leaves with with no bid/bad bids very often, and I have never had a penalty X anyways.
#5
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2008-June-12, 01:17
If the double really is penalties, I'd pass, pleasantly surprised by the lengths of my minors. If "penalties" means a balanced 18-count, I'd bid 3♥.
For me the double would be takeout, and no more convertible than
1♣ (3♦) dbl
That is, you might pass with good diamonds or a hand where you're really stuck, but otherwise you're expected to bid.
For me the double would be takeout, and no more convertible than
1♣ (3♦) dbl
That is, you might pass with good diamonds or a hand where you're really stuck, but otherwise you're expected to bid.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#6
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Posted 2008-June-12, 02:49
Ditto Justin and Andy.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#7
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Posted 2008-June-12, 05:26
I have never heard of this double as penalty - I thought the only existing styles are takeout or optional (typically a balanced 18-19 count).
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#8
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Posted 2008-June-12, 06:57
With both extra length and less than half the strength partner would expect me to have, I am definitely pulling to 3♥. It could be wrong, of course, but I believe it has better chances in the long run.
#9
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Posted 2008-June-12, 08:32
I've always believed a hand like:
♠x ♥Ax ♦AQJx ♣KQxxxx
sits for 3♦
They don't come up a whole lot for starters and there are better uses of the call than penalty. Yes, you'd love to make a thumb through the table double, but it isn't practical to do so.
Therefore, pard's double shows more like: Ax Axx Axx AQxxx.
♠x ♥Ax ♦AQJx ♣KQxxxx
sits for 3♦
They don't come up a whole lot for starters and there are better uses of the call than penalty. Yes, you'd love to make a thumb through the table double, but it isn't practical to do so.
Therefore, pard's double shows more like: Ax Axx Axx AQxxx.
"Phil" on BBO
#10
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Posted 2008-June-12, 09:05
Or Ax AQxx xx AQxxx?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
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Posted 2008-June-12, 09:56
han, on Jun 12 2008, 03:49 AM, said:
Ditto Justin and Andy.
ditto han
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#12
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Posted 2008-June-12, 10:01
If my partner had somehow convinced me to play penalty-doubles here, and he then pulled my double, I'd probably pull the plug on the partnership.
_____________________________________
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
#13
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Posted 2008-June-12, 10:10
pclayton, on Jun 12 2008, 08:32 AM, said:
Therefore, pard's double shows more like: Ax Axx Axx AQxxx.
Ok, after I made my post further up I wondered whether really anyone still plays this double as optional, but it turns out Phil does
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#14
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Posted 2008-June-12, 12:20
What hands does partner pass: 'up to you, partner' on?
Which bid before me?
Now, I can 'see' witch hands are possible for partner. So what I do cooperatively.
Which bid before me?
Now, I can 'see' witch hands are possible for partner. So what I do cooperatively.
#15
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2008-June-12, 12:58
you have
AKxx
KJxx
AQx
xx
and open 1NT. partner bids 3NT, to play. pass or pull?
AKxx
KJxx
AQx
xx
and open 1NT. partner bids 3NT, to play. pass or pull?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#16
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Posted 2008-June-12, 13:12
Partner actually had this hand, having decided (breaking partnership agreement, but reasonable) to open 1 club instead of 1 diamond.
On perfect defense, 3 diamonds goes down several. On likely defense (club lead and continuation, instead of leading hearts and tapping declarer), declarer goes down 1 for a bad matchpoint score (declarer has 2-1-6-4).
Does partner's hand look like a penalty double, or more like one of those flexible doubles Justin and others were endorsing? Other comments?
On perfect defense, 3 diamonds goes down several. On likely defense (club lead and continuation, instead of leading hearts and tapping declarer), declarer goes down 1 for a bad matchpoint score (declarer has 2-1-6-4).
Does partner's hand look like a penalty double, or more like one of those flexible doubles Justin and others were endorsing? Other comments?
Chris Gibson
#17 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-June-12, 15:21
CSGibson, on Jun 12 2008, 02:12 PM, said:
Does partner's hand look like a penalty double, or more like one of those flexible doubles Justin and others were endorsing? Other comments?
Well playing penalty Xs I would make one of those, and playing "flexible" doubles I would make one of those, and this shape doesn't actually exist for my 1C bid, so I guess none of this is surprising
I would not consider opening 1C to be reasonable either.
#18
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2008-June-12, 15:35
If it were Ax AQ10x 9xx AKQx:
- Playing takeout doubles I'd double, for want of anything better to do.
- Playing "strong balanced" doubles, I'd double, feeling pleased with my choice of methods.
- Playing penalty doubles I'd ... er ... um ... yes, what would I do? Please can someone who plays penalty doubles tell us the correct call?
- Playing takeout doubles I'd double, for want of anything better to do.
- Playing "strong balanced" doubles, I'd double, feeling pleased with my choice of methods.
- Playing penalty doubles I'd ... er ... um ... yes, what would I do? Please can someone who plays penalty doubles tell us the correct call?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#19
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Posted 2008-June-12, 16:50
If you play penalty doubles, you pass penalty doubles. Otherwise stop playing penalty doubles.
Of course in my experience, most people who play double as "penalty" aren't playing anything of the sort.
Of course in my experience, most people who play double as "penalty" aren't playing anything of the sort.
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1♣-(p)-1♠-(3♦),
X-(p)-?