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Fit non jump?

#21 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 09:15

kenrexford, on May 30 2008, 11:45 AM, said:

The bottom line, though, is that your partners have no solution many times. If they guess, for instance, that 4 is a natural bid, but you meant fit bid, then the result could be devastating. If they guess fit bid but natural was intended, equally devastating results may occur. There is no option to assume no inference, as 4 is unlikely to be defined in system notes and probably cannot be found in all texts as uniformly described (if ever even mentioned).

Huh?? Assuming a fit bid is assuming 'something'. Assuming natural is assuming 'nothing'. If we have not made an agreement to play a bid as otherwise then it is natural, anything else is the inference and sorry but partner would be crazy and wrong to assume it.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#22 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 09:41

jdonn, on May 31 2008, 10:15 AM, said:

Huh?? Assuming a fit bid is assuming 'something'. Assuming natural is assuming 'nothing'. If we have not made an agreement to play a bid as otherwise then it is natural, anything else is the inference and sorry but partner would be crazy and wrong to assume it.

Many believe that when a passed partner introduces a new suit at a high level after partner's simple overcall, then a fit non jump is the most natural interpretation.

I agree with JDonn that such bids are conventional. Nevertheless, Robson and Segal have persuaded me that they are a sensible use of bidding space:
  • They enlist partner's help in judging whether to compete further and
  • They suggest effective tactics when you decide to defend.
Anyway, JLall, we've answered your question. Now please put us out of our misery :)
  • What is the successful lead? and
  • By what logic should we arrive at the right decision?

... Oh! Sorry! Wrong topic :) :D :D :D :D
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#23 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 09:52

nige1, on May 31 2008, 10:41 AM, said:

I agree with JDonn that such bids are conventional. Nevertheless, Robson and Segal have persuaded me that they are a sensible use of bidding space:

Awesome. Should you assume these conventional bids undiscussed because you believe they are sensible bids?

No one believes they are the most natural interpretation. Some may believe they are the most useful interpretation, which is different.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#24 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 16:41

jdonn, on May 31 2008, 04:52 PM, said:

Awesome. Should you assume these conventional bids undiscussed because you believe they are sensible bids?

No one believes they are the most natural interpretation. Some may believe they are the most useful interpretation, which is different.

I believe that they're the most logical interpretation. In the circles I play in they're also, I think, so close to being standard that I'd assume them without discussion.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#25 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-31, 16:57

If you X partner will pass and you will get 500.

If you pass, partner passes (though it's not a clear pass, that's what he chose to do when I passed at the table) and you get 200. Side question for those who pass, what were you planning to do over the reopening X (I thought it was very close between 4D and 5C but I was going to bid 5C).

If you bid 4C partner will raise to 5C and you will go down on an unlucky layout.

Partner had QJTxx A8x Ax Axx.

edit: So obviously 3N is cold and a 3C opener makes the hand very simple heh.
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#26 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 17:06

Jlall, on May 31 2008, 11:57 PM, said:

Side question for those who pass, what were you planning to do over the reopening X (I thought it was very close between 4D and 5C but I was going to bid 5C).

I'd bid 5. With 7-4 it's usually better to play in the long suit, even if it means being a level higher.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#27 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 19:29

nige1, on May 31 2008, 10:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 31 2008, 10:15 AM, said:

Huh?? Assuming a fit bid is assuming 'something'. Assuming natural is assuming 'nothing'. If we have not made an agreement to play a bid as otherwise then it is natural, anything else is the inference and sorry but partner would be crazy and wrong to assume it.

Many believe that when a passed partner introduces a new suit at a high level after partner's simple overcall, then a fit non jump is the most natural interpretation.

I agree with JDonn that such bids are conventional. Nevertheless, Robson and Segal have persuaded me that they are a sensible use of bidding space:
  • They enlist partner's help in judging whether to compete further and
  • They suggest effective tactics when you decide to defend.
Anyway, JLall, we've answered your question. Now please put us out of our misery :)
  • What is the successful lead? and
  • By what logic should we arrive at the right decision?
... Oh! Sorry! Wrong topic :P :D :D :D :D

I agree fully with nigel's omment. I would have opened the hand 3C precisley to avoid the now present situation. For me the C bid after passing would definitely be a fit non jump. For most people i know this would also be its meaning.
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#28 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 20:42

would have bid before... now I'm quite stuck for a bid, though I can "try" something like 3NT or dbl.

I would not bid 4 because I've indoctrinated my pards into fit bids and stuff and have no clue as to what they'd think of 4... lol
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#29 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 20:48

Jlall, on May 31 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

edit: So obviously 3N is cold and a 3C opener makes the hand very simple heh.

FWIW when I held this hand a few days ago I opened 3C which did indeed get us to 3NT quickly.

FWIW I don't believe in fit-showing non-jumps (and I am not much of a fan of fit-showing jumps either).

Fred Gitelman
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#30 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-31, 21:16

fred, on May 31 2008, 09:48 PM, said:

Jlall, on May 31 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

edit: So obviously 3N is cold and a 3C opener makes the hand very simple heh.

FWIW when I held this hand a few days ago I opened 3C which did indeed get us to 3NT quickly.

FWIW I don't believe in fit-showing non-jumps (and I am not much of a fan of fit-showing jumps either).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Kevin also thinks it's best to open 3C.


I dunno, maybe I was too conservative because it was second seat and I was worried so much about missing hearts.
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#31 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-May-31, 21:37

Question: "Is a fit non-jump a conventional treatment or an inference?"

Any call, at any time, suggests something about the hand, a description. However,all bids are also made in the context of a few general rules. One of those general rules is that you have a point, a reason to make a bid. A second general rule is that you have a reasonable assessment that your reason will lead to a good result more often than not. A third general rule is that any call has a greater likelihood of success if partner understands the call and knows what to do about it. A fourth general rule is that actions in the future are limited and defined, in part, by the history of the auction leading up to it. A fifth general rule is that a good partnership tends, in situations where two or more irreconcilable options are available, to select that which seems more often to be needed or the loss of which more often is less costly.

If you have any auction, where at a certain point a call is "natural," then, there must be more to it. It is interesting that a lot of folks who object to the idea of a bid that is described as a "fit non-jump" provide no alternative than "natural." Well, a fit non-jump is a natural call. So, what do people who decline this idea have for their "natural" calls? What expectations are there?

If the call that might otherwise be made in a situation appropriate for the call known as a fit non-jump has a different definition, then presumably that different definition can be provided more specifically thn "natural." After so defining this mysterious call, presumably then one could assess whether the partnership needs that call more or less than average by assessing the opening bid style, or some other systemic parameter. Some might have a greater need for some other call; others less so. Upon making that assessment, one could then weigh the relative merits and deficits to each option, alternatives available if each option is declined, and the like to assess what makes sense for the partnership.

However, deciding that you just don't like the bid and want no more definition than "natural" seems really dim. Surely this "natural" meaning cannot be all. Surely one wopuld not, for instance, take a 4 call here as just showing a bunch of clubs and less than opening strength. If you cannot get anywhere past that point, in this "it's natural" definition, then your partnership bidding, IMO, is in trouble. Your partnership is either living on a set of definitions, a large amount of which is unavailable, or on inference without any talent for gathering inference.

I doubt that this is the case. My assumption is that there actually is some sort of assumed definition. And, guess what? The definituion could be called something. "A distributional non-fit non-jump" ("DNFNJ"). The DNFNJ will often, in many sequences, by force of logic show the bid suit and length in the unbid suit, or the unbid major. (If there is no unbid suit, then not playing fit non-jumps would be impossible.)

So, the DNFNJ is also artificial. It shows two suits, but people just do not want to admit this when debating theory, or they do not recognize this (which is frightening). There could be some rare exceptions where suit quality agreements for preempts messed things up earlier, or similar systemic definitons. But, the call shows two suits. The sole question, then, in many of our minds, is why there is a preference for showing the two unbid suits over the suit and support.

I myself play some DNFNJ bids, as of recently. E.g., P-P-1-P-2 shows hearts and a minor, strangely. But, I consider the DNFNJ bid to be the unexpected agreement and the FNJ the default.
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