[jillybean]

Dealer: East Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ J653 ♥ AKQ63 ♦ AQ9 ♣ 9

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  1♥
 Pass  1♠    Pass  4♣
 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♥
 Pass  6♥    Pass  6♠
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Your comments please, I will post Norths hand later

[kenrexford]

It looks OK until the last bid.

4NT was apparently plain-old Blackwood, meaning that neither the King nor the Queen of spades could be shown. Partner then offered 6♥ as a contract, presumably because he has an idea in one of the minors as to how to get rid of slow spade losers, if you lack spade secondaries.

You lack spade secondaries, but you have GREAT hearts. So, why convert back to spades?

[Winstonm]

The splinter is an overbid - slight. Although shape, fit, and loser-count all suggest game is surely on, the splinter choice may well lead to a near-hopeless slam if partner holds: AKxx, x, KJxxx, xxx.

For what it's worth, I've found that for game bidding, it is O.K. to make the slight overbid, but when it comes to slams the slight underbid is preferred. As I consider this splinter by opener as a slam suggestion, it should have full values.

[kenrexford]

Winstonm, on Apr 20 2008, 03:11 PM, said:

The splinter is an overbid - slight.  Although shape, fit, and loser-count all suggest game is surely on, the splinter choice may well lead to a near-hopeless slam if partner holds: AKxx, x, KJxxx, xxx.

For what it's worth, I've found that for game bidding, it is O.K. to make the slight overbid, but when it comes to slams the slight underbid is preferred.  As I consider this splinter by opener as a slam suggestion, it should have full values.

I would agree that the splinter would be too aggressive except that this is a 4♣ splinter in support of spades (as opposed to a one-under or even two-under splinter). That gives Responder a lot of room below game to explore slam without committing to even entering the five-level.

For example, with your proposed ♠Axxx ♥x ♦KJxxx ♣xxx, the auction could be:

O: 1♥ (yep)
R: 1♠ (yep)
O: 4♣ (splinter, but flexible because three steps below trumps)
R: 4♦ (diamond cue, pushing)
O: 4♠ (not good enough to accept, not even good enough to push back)

If Opener had a better hand like ♠QJxx ♥AKxxx ♦AQx ♣x, he could LTTC 4♥ after 4♦. With a void in clubs, or some such great feature, he could accept a 4♦ try on his own.

Even if there is nothing "B/I" suitable, like LTTC, Responder can just bid 4♦ as a "values bid, with interest," and Opener will sign off to say "nope," or bid 4♥ as a "values bid" to say, "maybe."

[jillybean]

We had agreed RKC so the 6♥ was a suprise. I didnt know if partner had ♥'s so I thought it safer to correct to ♠

[kenrexford]

jillybean2, on Apr 20 2008, 03:23 PM, said:

We had agreed RKC so the 6♥ was a suprise. I didnt know if partner had ♥'s so I thought it safest to correct to ♠

Oh yeah -- the answers are the same for spades. Duh!

Well, this is somewhat strange, but I would trust that partner has worked this out. He knows that you have nothing in spades as far as secondaries. If he is looking at the diamond King, then he knows that your diamonds are at best AQxx, and probably AQx for failure to show the void. He probably can work out that you must have solid hearts to splinter with one club loser, one diamond loser, and three spade losers. So, he knows your exact hand and bid 6♥ to play.

I mean, give partner three cards, the spade Ace/King and the diamond King. In this sequence, he just about is 100% that your exact hand is four spades without the Queen, no club void, the Ace and Queen of diamonds (possibly Ax if you have a sixth heart), and solid hearts -- AKQxx(x). Right?

[jillybean]

Winstonm, on Apr 20 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

The splinter is an overbid - slight. Although shape, fit, and loser-count all suggest game is surely on, the splinter choice may well lead to a near-hopeless slam if partner holds: AKxx, x, KJxxx, xxx.

For what it's worth, I've found that for game bidding, it is O.K. to make the slight overbid, but when it comes to slams the slight underbid is preferred. As I consider this splinter by opener as a slam suggestion, it should have full values.

Another school of thought on splinters is that if you have a choice of bids then a plinter is simpler and better, even if it is not perfect. You are telling partner slam is possible, it is still only a suggestion.

[jillybean]

kenrexford, on Apr 20 2008, 01:29 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 20 2008, 03:23 PM, said:

We had agreed RKC so  the 6♥ was a suprise. I didnt know if partner had ♥'s so I thought it safest to correct to ♠

Oh yeah -- the answers are the same for spades. Duh!

Well, this is somewhat strange, but I would trust that partner has worked this out. He knows that you have nothing in spades as far as secondaries. If he is looking at the diamond King, then he knows that your diamonds are at best AQxx, and probably AQx for failure to show the void. He probably can work out that you must have solid hearts to splinter with one club loser, one diamond loser, and three spade losers. So, he knows your exact hand and bid 6♥ to play.

I mean, give partner three cards, the spade Ace/King and the diamond King. In this sequence, he just about is 100% that your exact hand is four spades without the Queen, no club void, the Ace and Queen of diamonds (possibly Ax if you have a sixth heart), and solid hearts -- AKQxx(x). Right?

Right & if I could think like that at the table I wouldnt be posting on these forums

[Winstonm]

kenrexford, on Apr 20 2008, 03:20 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 20 2008, 03:11 PM, said:

The splinter is an overbid - slight.  Although shape, fit, and loser-count all suggest game is surely on, the splinter choice may well lead to a near-hopeless slam if partner holds: AKxx, x, KJxxx, xxx.

For what it's worth, I've found that for game bidding, it is O.K. to make the slight overbid, but when it comes to slams the slight underbid is preferred.  As I consider this splinter by opener as a slam suggestion, it should have full values.

I would agree that the splinter would be too aggressive except that this is a 4♣ splinter in support of spades (as opposed to a one-under or even two-under splinter). That gives Responder a lot of room below game to explore slam without committing to even entering the five-level.

For example, with your proposed ♠Axxx ♥x ♦KJxxx ♣xxx, the auction could be:

O: 1♥ (yep)
R: 1♠ (yep)
O: 4♣ (splinter, but flexible because three steps below trumps)
R: 4♦ (diamond cue, pushing)
O: 4♠ (not good enough to accept, not even good enough to push back)

If Opener had a better hand like ♠QJxx ♥AKxxx ♦AQx ♣x, he could LTTC 4♥ after 4♦. With a void in clubs, or some such great feature, he could accept a 4♦ try on his own.

Even if there is nothing "B/I" suitable, like LTTC, Responder can just bid 4♦ as a "values bid, with interest," and Opener will sign off to say "nope," or bid 4♥ as a "values bid" to say, "maybe."

Ken,

Quote

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion

[jillybean]

Quote

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion

Where Beginners/Intermediates can ask questions and Advanced/Expert responses are welcomed.

[Winstonm]

jillybean2, on Apr 20 2008, 03:56 PM, said:

Quote

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion

Where Beginners/Intermediates can ask questions and Advanced/Expert responses are welcomed.

No offense intended, but in my experience it is better to learn from certain principles and move outward than to try to solve all problems with a twist in the bidding.

[kenrexford]

Winstonm, on Apr 20 2008, 04:02 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 20 2008, 03:56 PM, said:

Quote

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion

Where Beginners/Intermediates can ask questions and Advanced/Expert responses are welcomed.

No offense intended, but in my experience it is better to learn from certain principles and move outward than to try to solve all problems with a twist in the bidding.

Learn from certain principles and move outward?

Principle #1: Add 3 points for a stiff if you have a fit. J+AKQ+AQ+3 = 19.

Principle #2: 26 usually makes game (19+6or7=25or26)

Principle #3: A five-loer hand with a fit makes game opposite a response.

Principle #4: Bid game if you have it; show shape if you can on the way.

Principle #5: The lower your descriptive bid, the more flexible it can be. Space is power.

So, 4♣ looks right.

How about bidding 4♦, then, as Responder?

Principle #6: If you are close, make a descriptive bid the encourages partner to move if he has extras.

Principle #7: If you do not have extras, suggest a sign-off.

Principle #8: Trust partner.

So, bidding 4♦ seems reasonable for a B/I who is not sure what to do and is almost there.

I don't understand the objection here. I'd be willing to bet that jillybean2 understands what I am suggesting, probably likes the thinking, and probably appreciates the advice. To suggest that I am tossing too much out might be seen as a little offensive and arrogant to jillybean2.

[655321]

Auction looks fine, except I would have passed 6♥.

[mikeh]

Odd auction, but I sort of agree with Ken (which doesn't necessarily mean that it is a REALLY odd auction )

6♥ was to play: responder never had a chance to support hearts after the splinter. He wants to play slam but is afraid of spade losers.

So: Axxx Jxx Kx AKQx .. he expects to ruff a diamond in his hand if you have a subminimum splinter, hence no 6N... or Axxxx Jxx x AKQx

It is useful to have the agreement that the partner who uses keycard places the contract, unless he makes a call that, by agreement, involves partner.

A rebid of 5N involves partner because it is usually used not only to check for kings but also to inform partner that we have all the keycards and the trump Queen (or compensating length) and now partner is allowed to bid grand, rather than answer kings, if partner has an undisclosed source of tricks... an example being a side suit of AKQJxx when he has shown only, say, AKxxx so far.

Using that rule here makes the pass of 6♥ automatic.

[neilkaz]

Agreeing with mikeh that this is a clear pass of 6H however, I could see situation where if you had strong ♠ and weaker ♥ you might prefer 6♠, but with these cards I trust PD to have weakish ♠ and we need to pitch some from one of our hands.

The splinter is a bit pushy with 16 HCP and a stiff due to being only 19 support points with weak trumps. Thus the chances to get into trouble in ♠ and not be able to handle a bad split become a factor.

However, if PD uses the only bid that doesn't go above game and is not a direct s/off attempt..ie 4♦ as LTTC or whatever you want to call it, you should come out OK after this bare min splinter.

When PD fails to use LTTC here (note how little room this auction has) and bids RKC, he should be ready to place the contract which he basically did with 6♥. He should expect to be a fav to make opposite a min hand (which you hold) for your splinter.

.. neilkaz ..

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  1♥
 Pass  1♠    Pass  4♣
 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♥
 Pass  6♥    Pass  6♠
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


Was my 6♠ bid the only oddity?

Here's the full hand, what do you think of the 1♠ as opposed to a gf j2nt bid?

[655321]

Yes, what else besides the 6♠ bid is unusual? 1♥, 4♣ and 5♥ are all 100% actions IMO.

Jacoby 2NT guarantees 4 trumps, no ifs, no buts. North cannot consider 2NT with Jxx support.

[kenrexford]

Responder's 6♥ call was somewhat weird.

1. The spades are solid, so why taunt partner?
2. Responder has no idea if the hearts are good or not. Give you AKxxx in hearts, and AQ10 of diamonds, and you might get rid of a heart loser in 6♠.
3. Whereas the club values do offer some chance of eliminating a spade loser if spades are 4-0 with the Jack behind, or some other troubling layout, it seems more likely to want to erase the heart loser with diamonds or to erase diamond losers with clubs than to want to erase spade losers, especially given the info available so far.

That said, I understand the 6♥ bid. Responder may have weighed all of this but determined that these were mirages in comparison to the risk of a diamond lead (which may have come?). Declaring hearts protects the diamonds. Fortunately, 6♠ is safe because the hearts happen to be solid.

6♠ was a bad call, for the reasons stated.

1♠ was fine. 2NT? No way 2NT. I like 2♣, myself, but that's a whole nuther thing.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Learn from certain principles and move outward?

Yes, and the first principle is to define a splinter bid - should it be a strong hand with a feature or a slightly weaker hand with chances for game?

xxxx, xx, KJx, KJxx opposite the proposed hand does not produce even a play for game - is it still a good splinter bid?

Jxxx is the most overrated support holding in bridge - it is not much better than xxxx - basically Jxxx helps when a stiff honor pops onside, otherwise, the J isn't of much use - call it roughly 10% better than xxxx.

What you have is a hand that is about the equivalent of: xxxx, AKQxx, AQx, x - is that still a minimum splinter?

[kenrexford]

Winstonm, on Apr 20 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

Quote

Learn from certain principles and move outward?

Yes, and the first principle is to define a splinter bid - should it be a strong hand with a feature or a slightly weaker hand with chances for game?

xxxx, xx, KJx, KJxx opposite the proposed hand does not produce even a play for game - is it still a good splinter bid?

Jxxx is the most overrated support holding in bridge - it is not much better than xxxx - basically Jxxx helps when a stiff honor pops onside, otherwise, the J isn't of much use - call it roughly 10% better than xxxx.

What you have is a hand that is about the equivalent of: xxxx, AKQxx, AQx, x - is that still a minimum splinter?

Huh?

Jxxx is a lot better than xxxx. It wildly improves partner's AQxx, AQ10x, K10xx, K109x, Q10xx, Qxxx, Kxxx, and many other holdings.

Sure, 4♠ might not make. I'd hate to ever bid a game that failed. That would be so embarassing.