[jillybean]

Dealer: South Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ QT97 ♥ A75 ♦ KQ ♣ AQJ4

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♣
 Pass  2NT   Pass  ?

You open 1♣ in first seat - pass - 2nt back to you?



Bonus question:

What does 3♥ mean to you in this auction?
(P) P (P) 1♥
(2♣) 3♥

[vuroth]

Easy?

Playing "SAYC", I bid 4NT, since they've promised 13-15.

Playing SAYC with a partner I know, I bid 3NT, since everyone seems to take 2NT as invitational, not GF.

V

[skjaeran]

With anyone but my regular partner 2NT would be invitational, thus I raise to 3NT.

With my regular 2NT shows 13+ (15-17 3343/3334 would bid a direct 3NT), with him I'd raise to 4NT.

[kenrexford]

Initial Question: What after 1♣-P-2NT-P-?

I'm not sure what 2NT shows in your methods. We are obviously bidding at least 3NT, so the question seems to be whether a slam is possible.

Most people play that 1NT after a 1♣ opening shows about 8-11. So, I'd assume at least 12, whatever you are playing. So, is there a 12-count where slam is possible?

I want to have the diamond Ace from partner, as this is a particularly nice card, allowing me to likely ditch one slow heart loser. I also want a club fit, which seems fairly likely. The diamond Ace, club King, and spade A-K would make 6♣ a virtual laydown, for 14 HCP. I might even ditch TWO hearts on diamonds (e.g., AJxx). But, perhaps 14 is too much (12-13). 6♣ on a hook might be making, such as replacing the spade King with the spade Jack or not having the club King. That makes an 11-count plausible for slam.

Something like:

♠AKx ♥xxx ♦Axx ♣Jxxx or
♠AJx ♥xxx ♦Axx ♣Kxxx

But, we still seem to need a club fit and a good split, making this seem less than 50%. Removing other cards really attentuates the hand.

That, and what to bid, convince me to bid 3NT unless 2NT was different than what I expect -- a great 11 to a bad 13. If I am wrong (e.g., 13-15), then some slam move makes sense. 4NT makes sense, unless you have some strange tools available.

Bonus Question:

For me, this is a "limix" raise of a fourth-seat opening (5-card support, some shortness value, and 5-8 HCP).

[jillybean]

Playing 'SAYC' 2nt "should" be 13-15 GF but many seem to play this as 11+, unless 3nt is the right spot I more often than not end up in a wrong contract after the auction starts 1m:2nt.

And 2nt:4nt seems to be a constant source of confusion.

[jdonn]

jillybean2, on Apr 15 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

Playing 'SAYC' 2nt "should" be 13-15 GF but many seem to play this as 11+, unless 3nt is the right spot I more often than not end up in a wrong contract after the auction starts 1m:2nt.

And 2nt:4nt seems to be a constant source of confusion.

If 2NT is 13-15 this is an easy 4NT bid to invite slam. If partner won't understand 4NT then I guess I bid 3NT since a partner who doesn't know an obvious quantitative 4NT probably won't be able to make an easy slam either

[han]

I think most play 2NT invitational, so we have an easy 3NT bid.

[neilkaz]

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 04:04 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 15 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

Playing 'SAYC' 2nt "should" be 13-15 GF but many seem to play this as 11+, unless 3nt is the right spot I more often than not end up in a wrong contract after the auction starts 1m:2nt.

And 2nt:4nt seems to be a constant source of confusion.

If 2NT is 13-15 this is an easy 4NT bid to invite slam. If partner won't understand 4NT then I guess I bid 3NT since a partner who doesn't know an obvious quantitative 4NT probably won't be able to make an easy slam either

We agree.

It's fun to agree full SAYC with some pick up in MBC and then ask if 1♣ followed by a 2NT response is 11-12 or 13-15 and get no answer from an obvious English speaker.

Most people play 11-12 but there's the few that play 13-15 so in practice when I've agreed SAYC (ie they don't play 2/1 GF) I almost always raise there 2NT to 3NT and try to make game just incase PD can make it with 23 HCP or just incase they have 13-15 !

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

assuming 2NT show 10-12 bal, I bid 3NT.

3H would show a 2-suiter, I would say, that
it shows 6-5, but it may just be a adv. cue
bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 03:04 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 15 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

Playing 'SAYC' 2nt "should" be 13-15 GF but many seem to play this as 11+, unless 3nt is the right spot I more often than not end up in a wrong contract after the auction starts 1m:2nt.

And 2nt:4nt seems to be a constant source of confusion.

If 2NT is 13-15 this is an easy 4NT bid to invite slam. If partner won't understand 4NT then I guess I bid 3NT since a partner who doesn't know an obvious quantitative 4NT probably won't be able to make an easy slam either

3nt/6nt ,You are playing it

[pclayton]

Standard meaning of 2N is invitational. We have an unremarkable 18 so we bid game. By the way, I like 3x (x = higher than opener's suit) as shortness.

Ken, I wouldn't characterize 1♣ - 1N as 8-11 as being standard. I know a lot of bridge teachers advocate this (8-10 really) but this was taught before the days we would overcall at the one level on cheese. You are forced to bid 1♦ on a 3, even a 2 card suit, which is amazing to me. I've never believed that 8-10/11 is playable.

It's funny, the only people that play 2N as forcing are beginners that know Goren and very accomplished players that have an alternative call for a balanced invite

[vuroth]

pclayton, on Apr 16 2008, 10:05 AM, said:

It's funny, the only people that play 2N as forcing are beginners that know Goren and very accomplished players that have an alternative call for a balanced invite

Which is what makes it so frustrating for 2NT forcing to be in SAYC....