[han]

Yes I agree with that Arend, my title is a sexist expression and therefore poorly chosen. It happened, I post a lot and most of the time I manage not to offend most people.

However, my joke was not sexist. Some people think it was not funny. I won't argue about that. Others even think I was seriously making fun at the expense of someone else. Fine, I did not intend to make anybody feel bad with this joke but I understand that it did. But it really was not sexist.

By the way, my comment that Aaron does not participate in the bridge forum and therefore has no business lecturing us repeatedly about how we should behave in the bridge forum has nothing to do with his skill level. It also has nothing to do with how often he posts in the water cooler.

[kenberg]

My wish(es):

Everyone continues to post as they see fit.
Moderators moderate as they see fit.
When their are clashes they get resolved by the principals without 150 or so posts.

Anyone for a beer? I'l buy the fiorst round.

[irdoz]

I have a fantasy that I could morph into a cartoon character like Bart Simpson carrying a megaphone scream 'STOP!' and a 'reality' beam would boom down from the skies, making people wonder what the point is any more in participating in this thread and would magically stop.

Back to reality...

When this thread questions were 'was my censorship appropriate' and 'do we have standards?' there was a point.

When it becomes 'did so and so behave well', and accusations about appropriate behaviour from all over the pace there no longer seems to be a point and the 'argument' is unwinnable and unimportant (its probably a metaphor for something else).

I say this as an outsider.

This is the best bridge message board on the net by kilometres. I like jillybeans posts - they often turn out to be very instructive. I like Hans posts and problems for the same reason. And I love the energy that a number of genuine expert bridge players give to their replies (awm, mikeh, jdonn, jlall, fredg etc etc etc etc - sorry I cant be exhaustive). And in general though everyone doesnt get along there is acceptance of diversity and difference as there should be.

I've seen other messageboards degenerate at times into factionalism, personal attacks that to an observer are just tedium and usually lead to less participation. That rarely happens here. This thread now has the feel it could head in that direction now - and frankly there has been some 'not perfectly appropriate' behaviour from a number of people in the last 30 or so posts. If this is a discussion you need to have then go at it but if there is no longer a clear reason then there are times tactical withdrawal is a good idea.

So slap me instead.

[jdonn]

kenberg, on Apr 3 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

My wish(es):

Everyone continues to post as they see fit.
Moderators moderate as they see fit.
When their are clashes they get resolved by the principals without 150 or so posts.

Anyone for a beer? I'l buy the fiorst round.

Don't your first and third wishes contradict each other? Everyone here is posting how they see fit.

[luke warm]

driving home from work today i heard a radio commercial that i found offensive *and* sexist, and i honestly don't believe most of the ones posting here would disagree with me

it was an ad for ladies' night at a baton rouge club and said (word for word) "ladies get in free before nine o'clock... get out on the dance floor and shake your hot and sweaty money makers"

am i being overly sensitive?

[Walddk]

luke warm, on Apr 4 2008, 12:11 AM, said:

am i being overly sensitive?

Yes. It's not beyond what I consider offensive. However, I don't think it's funny either.

Roland

[finally17]

The_Hog, on Apr 3 2008, 02:47 AM, said:

Roland, I have not posted anything on this thread because for me it is a non issue. However, without wanting to put words in anyone's mouth: I think what Han was getting at here was that IF you posted a lot on the bridge threads, THEN you would be aware that he does have a quirky sense of humour, and certainly didn't not intend any insult or offence to anyone.

With all due respect, Finally17's comments do come across as somewhat high handed and supercillious. perhaps he(she) doesn't mean them that way - probably not - but that is the impression they leave. Really, to make an analogy with a female colleague in the workplace is drawing a very long bow indeed.

a) I know well of Han's quirky sense of humor. Before his comments, which surprised me, I told him so personally. They surprised me specifically because we had discussed this in real time for a couple of moments.

b ) I was hardly the first person to use the analogy. And I didn't exactly use it regarding Han's post, I responded to Justin's "what's the big deal" with an explanation of what MIGHT be the big deal. But for those of you that don't see the relationship between these kinds of comments and the situation in the work place, I think it's probably because you wrongfully deny the systematized nature of the problem, perhaps not in word but certainly in belief.

[finally17]

han, on Apr 3 2008, 03:31 PM, said:

By the way, my comment that Aaron does not participate in the bridge forum and therefore has no business lecturing us repeatedly about how we should behave in the bridge forum has nothing to do with his skill level. It also has nothing to do with how often he posts in the water cooler.

I didn't think it had anything to do with my skill level. I brought that up because I honestly feel it's the attitude around this forum at times. And it's relevant here in this very discussion.

After I posted it, I wondered how long it would take your little mutual admiration society to show up and defend you. Didn't take long. Besides you, they had posted maybe 3 responses of the previous 75 or so, I just checked.

In the 25 since I directed my comments at you and jlall they've posted more than half a dozen, including multiple that were wholly made up of attempts at jokes at my expense.

You can criticize this belief I have however you want, but the evidence, and not just in this thread, supports it. They would have gone further to discredit my opinion by keeping their mouths shut, but they failed at that so they strengthen it.

I also didn't think it had had anything to do with how often I post in the water cooler. But I think I was clear, it didn't have anything to do with anything at all. It was apparently just your anger acting out.

It should further be noted that you claimed that I was trying to tell you how to behave, while in fact I never once did that. Earlier on in the thread I expressed my opinions as to how things should be monitored. I said multiple times that I have issues with censoring. But I defended the stance that there was some offense to be had in your jokes, even if I didn't have it. And I expressed categorically my annoyance that jlall, who has barely even lived "in the real world," should be wondering how others manage to get along in it, when the stupidity of his question was evident on its face.

If you want to offend people, go ahead and be that kind of person. I tend to do my best to avoid that unless there is some greater truth that needs expressing, and such truths rarely come in the form of a joke.

But I never once told you how to behave.

[jdonn]

Quote

They would have gone further to discredit my opinion by keeping their mouths shut, but they failed at that so they strengthen it.

Are you a politician?

Quote

After I posted it, I wondered how long it would take your little mutual admiration society to show up and defend you.  Didn't take long.

Guess not.

Quote

If you want to offend people, go ahead and be that kind of person.  I tend to do my best to avoid that unless there is some greater truth that needs expressing

This comment I found truly....amazing? Audacious? High and mighty? You are better with words than I am, help me out here. Would the world of bridgebase forums crumble without your greater truths that we are in such desperate need of having expressed toward us? Do you think that offends fewer people than a random pointless common expression? You have just made up your own rules for the game. It's bad to offend people, but it's ok in your case when you feel they are in need of your wisdom.

Also, feel free do disagree but I do think it's relevant how well established in the society, so to speak, people are. Especially in conjunction with the style of your posts. If you were having a debate with someone would you like some random shmo you have barely seen jumping into the fire to tell you everything that is wrong with your behavior?

[finally17]

If it offends you to have it explained to you how you might be offending others, well then there's some irony there isn't there? And no, I'm not missing the irony you're miserably attempting to point out in my own post, it doesn't exist. I'm well aware that you all are being offended.

But the irony is here: you are being offended because you are being told, and refuse to accept, that someone might have legitimately offered offense. I didn't enter this tangent of the discussion to offend anyone, I entered it because I found a post ABOUT A LEGITIMATE COMPLAINT ignorant, offensive, and completely without merit. My findings might bother you, but I submit that that's because they're true.

Quote

Also, feel free do disagree but I do think it's relevant how well established in the society, so to speak, people are. Especially in conjunction with the style of your posts. If you were having a debate with someone would you like some random shmo you have barely seen jumping into the fire to tell you everything that is wrong with your behavior?

I don't disagree with the first part of this point. It alone among the several you tried to make has some merit. However firstly, I question whether it's applicable to me or not, and I conclude in fact that no, it is not. Just because you and your little MAS dominate the bridge-discussion thread hardly means you're the only one here. There are many with my level of posting and reading, and you have no standing from which to disenfranchise us in the manner you want to.

Furthermore it's not remotely what Han said. He made a distinction between "serious posters" and ... some other group he didn't distinguish. If it's what he meant, for whatever reasons, it's not what can be understood. But even so it doesn't matter, see above.

Lastly, the style of my posts? You and your MAS are the ones who regularly attempt to mock people into submission. That kind of posting is what got me started here, and when I dared to stand up to it, it was that kind of posting that attempted to thrust me out of it. My posts? Really? Wow. That's amazing. The style of my posts is to explain thoroughly my views on the situation, so as much as I can help it there can be no question. The mockery, the refusal to accept that others are bothered when they say bluntly that they are, that is a problem style.

[kenberg]

jdonn, on Apr 3 2008, 04:56 PM, said:

kenberg, on Apr 3 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

My wish(es):

Everyone continues to post as they see fit.
Moderators moderate as they see fit.
When their are clashes they get resolved by the principals without 150 or so posts.

Anyone for a beer? I'l buy the fiorst round.

Don't your first and third wishes contradict each other? Everyone here is posting how they see fit.

A clash, yes, but I think no contradiction. There have been, I think, some posts suggesting that some people need to change their style. If, after hearing comments, someone decides to change his/her style, fine. If not, that is also fine by me. That was the intended thrust of number 1. People post as they think best, and change style if, and only if, they choose to. In the case of 2/3, I can imagine that a moderator might decide something is over the top. So he exercises his/her powers. The poster objects. The poster and the moderator can discuss this between themselves. The moderator has the power of the mouse, but perhaps he/she comes to see it the poster's way after hearing poster's arguments. Or perhaps not. The poster posts, the moderator mods. Sometimes there is a clash.

In practice: Jilly posts about tits. The moderator edits the post. Jilly writes to the moderator with her views. The moderator decides, maybe undoing his edit, maybe not. The rest of us stay out of it. However it works out, I don't give a *****. (In this modern world I can say that, yes?)

I see no contradiction.

The (or a) moderator started this to ask our views on how he was doing. I have no complaints. I have never had anything removed, I have never been warned, I have never gone into a faint over the language. Except on this thread, I rarely talk about shitting, fucking, or the size of my balls. I believe my friends appreciate this restraint.

Short version:
a. No need to change a thing.
b. I have bigger fish to fry.


And I still suggest that it is time, past time, for a round of beer. Way too much has been said about this.

[han]

kenberg, on Apr 3 2008, 06:57 PM, said:

Way too much has been said about this.

[mikeh]

wow... a real flame war is breaking out!

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with part of what just about everybody has written.

I suspect that one reason so many of us are getting steamed up is that we read the words of others through our own eyes, and pre-conceptions, biases, world-views, facility with written English, cultural beliefs and so on.

I have many times said something that I intended as a joke... I have what some would call a dry sense of humour and what others would regard as weird or non-existent.. and found that what I intended as parody or absurdity was taken at face value and found offensive... and that is face to face! I also know, from bitter experience, that the problem (for me) is exacerbated when I confine my 'humour' to written form.. because, absent emoticons, the message is devoid of body language, tone, pacing, facial expression and all of the other non-verbal cues that we rely upon in normal ftf discourse to complement the actual words.

So I read some of the criticism of finally17 as really challenging his right to speak based upon his lack of standing in the (small) community of frequent posters, and I agree with those who say that this is a bullshit reason to attack his posts on this topic. I also recognize that I may have misunderstood the intentions of (at least some of) those posters.

And I read finally17's comments about han and justin and the 'mutual admiration society' and thought that he had missed the point of the posts that prompted that reaction.

As someone who often allows his buttons to be pushed (far more so in real life, I am afraid, than on these forums.. and I'm not especially calm here.. so imagine!) can I suggest that we stop the personal attacks? I know that every post of the nature of the last few engenders a powerful desire to respond, but maybe we can hold off for a while.

In my business, when another lawyer really pisses me off, I will dictate a 'window-ledge letter'. I let loose with all my anger.... and I have a very good command of language in that regard.... and then I put the letter on the windowledge of my office and leave it there for at least 3 days. I have never sent one of those letters... by the time I look at it again, the immediacy of my anger has subsided and I deal with the issue in a more useful way. The problem with this forum is that it is too easy to press send.

We have a pretty good community here... some of don't get along here ... look at the occasional flame war I engage in with whereagles... and maybe I'm being a bit of a hypocrite given how I sometimes behave, but I think we should can the personal attacks for a few days. By all means, type your diatribe... you are assuredly right in how you feel... then save it and look at it again next week and post it if you still feel as strongly as you do now... I bet you won't

[nige1]

jillybean2, on Apr 1 2008, 10:38 AM, said:

I will still not post “Jesus Christ! I bid this poorly, this auction is f’ed  or look what a cretin I was here”  because I know someone is very likely to find it objectionable.

I agree: such language is just inconsiderate and lazy

jillybean2, on Apr 1 2008, 10:38 AM, said:

And I swear I will not post about this again 

Wash out your mouth with carbolic

[jtfanclub]

Jlall, on Apr 3 2008, 04:34 PM, said:

And yes, I do realize I will get flamed for this post but I think it's hillarious that you guys cannot see how out of control this situation is. CAN WE PUT THINGS IN PROPORTION PLEASE?

Out of control how? I see people venting about the usual crud. Nobody's left in tears or quit or anything. I'm glad it's here, instead of in the bridge forums.

I do think it's important that people not be ridiculed for saying that they were offended. On the other hand, just because somebody is offended doesn't mean that the moderators need to swoop in like flying monkeys. Sometimes the right answer is "I accept that you were offended, it wasn't my intent, and I'm not going to change it".

[matmat]

y'all need to get laid.

[FrancesHinden]

Go on, educate an ignorant limey.

What are MAS?

[sceptic]

Quote

If you want to offend people, go ahead and be that kind of person.  I tend to do my best to avoid that unless there is some greater truth that needs expressing

This comment I found truly....amazing? Audacious? High and mighty? You are better with words than I am, help me out here. Would the world of bridgebase forums crumble without your greater truths that we are in such desperate need of having expressed toward us? Do you think that offends fewer people than a random pointless common expression? You have just made up your own rules for the game. It's bad to offend people, but it's ok in your case when you feel they are in need of your wisdom.

well for once I find myself agreeing with jdonn

Quote

Lastly, the style of my posts? You and your MAS are the ones who regularly attempt to mock people into submission. That kind of posting is what got me started here, and when I dared to stand up to it, it was that kind of posting that attempted to thrust me out of it. My posts? Really? Wow. That's amazing. The style of my posts is to explain thoroughly my views on the situation, so as much as I can help it there can be no question. The mockery, the refusal to accept that others are bothered when they say bluntly that they are, that is a problem style.

I wish I could write and explain myself as well as you