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Affordable and Quality Health Care

#161 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 12:37

View Postmike777, on 2017-July-01, 23:14, said:

Posters in this forum seem to have just given up on asking the big main question...what can we as a nation do to get people to afford their own medical bills, posters just give up.

This would appear to be the first obvious place to look.
(-: Zel :-)
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#162 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 13:10

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-July-01, 16:35, said:

From Money:



This is a huge problem with no easy or quick solutions.

We can't control what we can't measure. Hospitals have been so focused on growing revenues and delivery of services that they have virtually ignored controlling the bottom line. If most hospital revenues are discounted or written off due to unrealistic price inflation, then we have an industry whose main problem is cost containment. They have a COST ACCOUNTING problem 1st.

And when you ask them to fix this problem, they usually opt to close the hospital or combine with another hospital. STOP GIVING them A PASS ON MANAGEMENT (Cost) Accounting! If you can't manage your bottom line, then you don't deserve to receive insurance reimbursements in perpetuity.
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#163 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 16:16

View Postmike777, on 2017-July-01, 23:14, said:

Barmar you seem to miss the big main point of your own post. People cannot afford their medical bills under Obamacare.

Posters in this forum seem to have just given up on asking the big main question...what can we as a nation do to get people to afford their own medical bills, posters just give up.

Look at Winston who always answers we need a KIng to pay for their bills, citizens will never be able to pay on their own.

The big really big success of Obama was to change the discussion from not how can citizens pay for care but how can we get DC to pay for it. He was successful in changing the discussion from how can the individual pay for it to how can the collective pay for it.

There are basically two directions that you can go to solve it:

1. Reduce costs and prices drastically. If the industry can't do it themselves through improved efficiency, the government will have to impose price limits. I guess this is the idea of "Medicaid for all".

2. Increase government subsidies.

It doesn't have to be either/or, it could be a combination.

#2 might require increasing taxes on the wealthy so the government can afford it. Unfortunately, the wealthy who would be affected by this control elections through their contributions, so it's really hard to get anything like that through. Instead, we have Republicans reducing their taxes, in both the Obamacare replacement and tax reform proposals. This doesn't solve the healthcare problem, and it also exacerbates income inequality. Good going, GOP.

#164 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 17:22

View Postbarmar, on 2017-July-02, 16:16, said:

There are basically two directions that you can go to solve it:

1. Reduce costs and prices drastically. If the industry can't do it themselves through improved efficiency, the government will have to impose price limits. I guess this is the idea of "Medicaid for all".

2. Increase government subsidies.

It doesn't have to be either/or, it could be a combination.

#2 might require increasing taxes on the wealthy so the government can afford it. Unfortunately, the wealthy who would be affected by this control elections through their contributions, so it's really hard to get anything like that through. Instead, we have Republicans reducing their taxes, in both the Obamacare replacement and tax reform proposals. This doesn't solve the healthcare problem, and it also exacerbates income inequality. Good going, GOP.


It seems to me that everyone is ignoring the cost drivers in health care. If we don't address those issues then costs will never come down to affordable levels.
  • Reform patent law to reduce the hold that pharmaceutical companies have on prices
  • Reform medical licensing laws to allow more competition
  • Reform tort law to reduce malpractice vulnerability and cost


Until we get the financial incentives aligned with our desired goals, nothing much will happen.
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#165 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 23:05

View Postldrews, on 2017-July-02, 17:22, said:

It seems to me that everyone is ignoring the cost drivers in health care. If we don't address those issues then costs will never come down to affordable levels.
  • Reform patent law to reduce the hold that pharmaceutical companies have on prices
  • Reform medical licensing laws to allow more competition
  • Reform tort law to reduce malpractice vulnerability and cost


Until we get the financial incentives aligned with our desired goals, nothing much will happen.

\

Idfrews I strongly disagree with your main big point premise...costs will never come down to affordable levels.

That is a fantasy.

Costs always...I repeat always fall to an affordable level. thing health care...unlimited demand....but limited supply....something gives at some point...at some point

Otoh your suggestions are worth further discussion.
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#166 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 03:55

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-June-30, 08:44, said:

Adam's answered is more nuanced - I can only add the reason I think the Democrats failed to get a single payer system passed was the Southern Democrats would not support cutting off the insurance companies.

Connecticut is in the South?

Well, I can't blame you for forgetting Joe Lieberman. We all wish we could. (He indicated he'd filibuster a public option, so surely he'd have been against single payer.)
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#167 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 05:55

View Postldrews, on 2017-July-02, 17:22, said:

It seems to me that everyone is ignoring the cost drivers in health care. If we don't address those issues then costs will never come down to affordable levels.
  • Reform patent law to reduce the hold that pharmaceutical companies have on prices
  • Reform medical licensing laws to allow more competition
  • Reform tort law to reduce malpractice vulnerability and cost


Until we get the financial incentives aligned with our desired goals, nothing much will happen.

These are nice ideas, but my gut tells me if we alleviate tort claims against doctors and hospitals, they will have a bigger bottom line to mismanage with business and accounting as usual practices. These are goals to think about once we get the largest service providers to overhaul their outdated cost accounting systems.

If they can't break down their cost structure between outpatient and inpatient services realistically and they are receiving annual reimbursements in the millions of dollars, their cost accounting system is out of whack. Thus, they won't know how much of their management/service overhead is redundant or too much. They also won't know their profit margins by type of service which is seat-of-the-pants hospital management.

We need to sour the working capital (insurance reimbursement) milk we supply them to get them to update and revolutionize their cost models. We need transparency of their cost structure to determine if the price inflation is market related or mismanagement related or both.

http://www.beckersho...accounting.html
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#168 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 06:17

http://www.healthlin...itals-closing#6

And keep in mind we haven't touched on the closure of rural hospitals problem despite the annual price increases in health care.
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#169 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 06:49

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-July-03, 06:17, said:

And keep in mind we haven't touched on the closure of rural hospitals problem despite the annual price increases in health care.

This is a problem even in countries with a sensible healthcare model. One way of tackling it along with the rising costs would be for the government to set a maximum price for each function in order to receive subsidies and either set the price differently depending on location, with rural areas being allowed to charge more, or simply provide a larger subsidy to rural hospitals. Such a model would obviously be practically impossible to legislate given the politics over there but you did not mention that the solution needs to be able to pass Congress, only to discuss possible answers.
(-: Zel :-)
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#170 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 07:49

The US should declare war on healthcare. Hospitals bristling with platoons of soldiers ready to help "save" patients and With the reserve currency allowing unlimited funds for the fight, pay off all of the interested parties and charge nothing to individuals who are the "victims" of healthcare...
Only in the USA, mind you ;)
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#171 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 11:53

Affordable healthcare shows how out of touch politicians are with the working poor. 25% of Americans cannot paid an unexpected $400 bill. For these Americans any thing other than free is not affordable.
They need subsidized health care right of the box. Not health insurance. The health insurers are parasites. They aren't needed for the individual market. Don't give health insurers $100B.
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#172 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 12:49

View Postjogs, on 2017-July-03, 11:53, said:

Affordable healthcare shows how out of touch politicians are with the working poor. 25% of Americans cannot paid an unexpected $400 bill. For these Americans any thing other than free is not affordable.
They need subsidized health care right of the box. Not health insurance. The health insurers are parasites. They aren't needed for the individual market. Don't give health insurers $100B.


Yes, but California has proposed that very thing. Estimated cost is 3 times their entire annual budget.
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#173 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 23:33

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2017-July-03, 07:49, said:

The US should declare war on healthcare. Hospitals bristling with platoons of soldiers ready to help "save" patients and With the reserve currency allowing unlimited funds for the fight, pay off all of the interested parties and charge nothing to individuals who are the "victims" of healthcare...
Only in the USA, mind you ;)

Every time we declare a "war on" something, it just gets word. We declared a war on drugs 45 years ago, now our prisons are full of low-level, non-violent offenders and we're suffering from an opioid epidemic (just a few years ago I'd never even heard of the word "opioid").

Obama also put Biden in charge of a "cancer moonshot". Unfortunately, the metaphor isn't as helpful as it should be -- the only moonshot that actually succeeded was the real one, and that's because it was funded by the Cold War fears. There's no "cancer race" now to spur the process.

#174 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-July-04, 01:59

I recognise that many people create health problems for themselves - obesity, drug use, alcoholism, etc. - and some are just unfortunate, but has anyone factored in how much side effects from some pharmaceutical drugs costs any health service?

I now use a clean diet, nutriceutical, Ayurvedic and herbal routine to keep by severe arthritis in check, buying online (less than $100) every 3 months from an American company (iHerb) for the most part. I just have one rheumatology appointment (check-up) per year, rarely see doctors and thus keep this country's (United Kingdom's) National Health Service's bills down.

I'm not saying everyone can follow my protocol, but the number of side effects I had from pharma drugs (steroids, NSAIDs, DMARDS) in the years from 2000 until 2010 that required health professional attention, added to the cost of the drugs themselves - some are very expensive - must have come to tens of thousands of dollars/pounds.

And whilst I believe that people who create problems for themselves should be treated initially as any addiction should be recognised as a health problem, there should be no unending supply of cash to those that don't want to help themselves. My friend, who is a senior nurse in a City hospital, sees the same druggies, alcoholics, etc. come into Accident and Emergency time and time again.

We might have a National Health Service in this country, but it is frightening how it is abused, and it is frightening how inefficient it can be.
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#175 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2017-July-04, 05:56

From What I Wish I’d Known About My Knees in yesterday's paper by Jane Brody, health writer

Quote

Many of the procedures people undergo to counter chronic knee pain in the hopes of avoiding a knee replacement have limited or no evidence to support them. Some enrich the pockets of medical practitioners while rarely benefiting patients for more than a few months.

I wish I had known that before I had succumbed to wishful thinking and tried them all.

After 10 years of jogging, decades of singles tennis and three ski injuries, my 50-plus-year-old left knee emitted clear signals that it was in trouble. I could still swim and ride a bike, but when walking became painful, I consulted an orthopedist who recommended arthroscopic surgery.

The operation, done with tiny incisions through a scope, revealed a shredded meniscus, the cartilage-like disc that acts like a cushion between the bones of the knee joint. The surgeon cleaned up the mess, I did the requisite postoperative physical therapy, then returned to playing tennis, walking, cycling and swimming.

Fast forward several years until increasing pain forced me off the court and X-rays revealed bone-on-bone arthritis in both knees. A sports medicine specialist suggested a series of injections of a gel-like substance, hyaluronic acid, meant to lubricate the joint and act as a shock absorber. The painful, costly injections were said to relieve knee pain in two-thirds of patients. Alas, I was in the third that didn’t benefit.

Continue reading the main story
With walking now painful and my quality of life diminished, I finally had both knees replaced, which has enabled me to walk, cycle, swim and climb for the last 13 years.

Serious questions are now being raised about the benefits of the arthroscopic procedures that millions of people endure in hopes of delaying, if not avoiding, total knee replacements.

The latest challenge, published in May in BMJ by an expert panel that systematically reviewed 12 well-designed trials and 13 observational studies, concluded that arthroscopic surgery for degenerative knee arthritis and meniscal tears resulted in no lasting pain relief or improved function.

Three months after the procedure, fewer than 15 percent of patients experienced at best “a small or very small improvement in pain and function,” effects that disappeared completely within a year.

As with all invasive procedures, the surgery is not without risks, infection being the most common, though not the only, complication.

Furthermore, the panel added, “Most patients will experience an important improvement in pain and function without arthroscopy.”

That, in fact, was the experience of a friend who, at about age 70 and an avid tennis player, consulted the same surgeon who had operated on my knee years earlier. My friend was told he had a torn meniscus that could be repaired arthroscopically, but he chose not to have the procedure. Instead, after several weeks of physical therapy, the pain had subsided, he returned to the court and has been playing without a recurrence for at least eight years.

“Arthroscopic surgery has a role, but not for arthritis and meniscal tears,” Dr. Reed A.C. Siemieniuk, a methodologist at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, and chairman of the panel, said in an interview. “It became popular before there were studies to show that it works, and we now have high-quality evidence showing that it doesn’t work.”

Arthroscopic surgery can sometimes be useful, he said, citing as examples people with traumatic injuries and young athletes with sports injuries. My son Erik is a case in point. When he was 23, Erik was playing basketball when he sustained a rupture of the anterior cruciate ligament in one knee that was successfully repaired arthroscopically. He’s been playing tennis and basketball on that knee without pain for the last 24 years.

The panel noted that about one-quarter of people older than 50 experience knee pain from degenerative knee disease, a percentage that rises with age. Arthroscopic procedures for this condition “cost more than $3 billion per year in the United States alone,” the report stated, suggesting that it was a near-complete waste of money.


Other common interventions include steroid injections into the knee. These can reduce painful inflammation, but if used repeatedly, steroids can speed the development of arthritis in the joint. A study published in May in JAMA by researchers at Tufts Medical Center found that the injection of a corticosteroid every three months over two years resulted in greater loss of knee cartilage and no significant difference in knee pain compared to patients who received a placebo injection.

The value of the other procedure I had, injections of hyaluronic acid (Synvisc and Monovisc are common brands), has somewhat better research support for patients with knee pain. One large study, published last year in PLOS One, included more than 50,000 patients treated with one or more courses of these injections and compared them to more than 131,000 patients who had no injections.

For those who underwent five or more courses, the injections delayed the average time to a total knee replacement by 3.6 years, whereas those who had only one course averaged 1.4 years until knee replacement, and those who had no injections had their knees replaced after an average of 114 days.

Dr. Siemieniuk conceded that treatment for degenerative knee arthritis can be “frustrating for both doctors and patients” because there is no clear answer as to what will help which patients.

Until there is better evidence, he suggested the following approaches that are known to help keep many patients out of the operating room.

• If you are overweight, lose weight. The more you weigh, the more pressure on your knees with every step and the more they are likely to hurt when walking or climbing stairs.

• Pay attention to the activities that aggravate knee pain and try to avoid those that are not essential, like squatting or sitting too long in one place.

• If the pain is bad enough, take an over-the-counter pain reliever like acetaminophen (Tylenol and others) or an NSAID (nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug) like ibuprofen or naproxen.

• Probably most helpful of all, undergo one or more cycles of physical therapy administered by a licensed therapist, perhaps one who specializes in knee pain. Be sure to do the recommended exercises at home and continue to do them indefinitely lest their benefits dissipate.

• Consider consulting an occupational therapist who can teach you how to modify your activities to minimize knee discomfort.

$3 bil here, $3 bil there. Stuff adds up.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#176 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2017-July-04, 12:00

The latest is opioid addiction. Doctors are given kickbacks to write prescriptions to highly addictive painkillers. Many of these patients should never been prescribed such powerful and addictive painkillers. Should society send a generation of doctors to jail?
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#177 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-July-04, 12:50

View Postjogs, on 2017-July-04, 12:00, said:

The latest is opioid addiction. Doctors are given kickbacks to write prescriptions to highly addictive painkillers. Many of these patients should never been prescribed such powerful and addictive painkillers. Should society send a generation of doctors to jail?

Is that what you suggest in place of malpractice litigation? Since many say that one of the big drivers of excessive healthcare costs is malpractice insurance.

#178 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2017-July-04, 16:01

View Postbarmar, on 2017-July-04, 12:50, said:

Is that what you suggest in place of malpractice litigation? Since many say that one of the big drivers of excessive healthcare costs is malpractice insurance.

Lawyers lie and claim it's only 2% total healthcare costs.
I'm against plaintiffs and lawyers receiving punitive damages. That money should go to state medicaids.
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#179 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2017-July-05, 10:51

View Postjogs, on 2017-July-01, 07:29, said:

This is a lie perpetuated by the Democrats. Obamacare is in total collapse. Doing nothing is better.

The White House has put up a video perpetuating many of the lies about the ACA. No wonder Trump has declared war on fact-checking: Decoding the White House spin on Obamacare ‘failures’

Quote

As the Senate gears up to vote on the GOP bill to overhaul the Affordable Care Act, the White House is publishing statistics to criticize the current health law. The White House published a “Repeal and Replace Obamacare” website, rife with numbers and graphics, and is posting various statistics through its Twitter account.

We always say numbers are like catnip for fact-checking — and it’s especially so when it comes to health care, a regular topic of interest at Fact Checker. So we looked into the recent spin on health-care figures from the White House. As readers will see, in most instances, the White House used accurate figures but characterized them in misleading ways or out of context.

Yes, the ACA needs to be fixed, but not by killing poor people.
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#180 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2017-July-05, 17:49

Why do a bunch of NIH bureaucrats get to decide whether and/or where Charlie Gard dies? Why in the world do they have that power in the first place?

Philosopher kings and a state-run health care system. Screw 'em.
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