[nickf]

What confirmation do you have that the whole team was involved? The photos I have seen show that it was only Rosenberg who held the poster, and the poster was about 5 times the size of a postage stamp. Maybe WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR BUSH refers to her and her husband?

fwiw, I think holding up a political message was inappropriate, irrespective of the sentiment. I also think it should be the npc, in particular, who should bear most of any blame, or punishment, if any is meted out.

nickf
sydney

[mrdct]

jonottawa, on Oct 13 2007, 09:48 PM, said:

Speaking of inappropriateness and the USA 1 Venice Cup team ...  Did this issue get resolved satisfactorily?

http://stacyjacobs.c.../bbo-commentary

If a player turns up 16 minutes late for a segment of a knock-out match in a world championship they deserve whatever ridicule anyone can come up with.

Perhaps Stacy Jacobs was watching a different table to the one I was at, but when the issue came up for discussion at my table the following was said:

"Walddk2: The question is whether the Americans can afford the 11 IMPs they were fined in the previous set
brolucius: Tell us more.
Walddk2: Late arrival of one player, 16 minutes
bjacobs: We are talking the Venice Cup here?
brolucius: Wow!
Walddk2: 5 minutes free of charge, then 1 IMP per minute after that
kit: does the 14 IMP lead include the penalty Roland?
Walddk2: That I don't know
brolucius: You need a good girlfriend to make such a delay worthwhile.
barnets:
bjacobs: Schiffer, minimum
kit: this is the venice cup David
Walddk2: Well, there is no law against having girlfriends in the Venice Cup"

All seemed pretty benign to me.

[mike777]

Do you have a link to photo?

[mrdct]

fred, on Oct 13 2007, 04:58 PM, said:

As for the player's themselves, keep in mind that they were INVITED to play in this tournament. When one accepts such an invitation it is simple and common courtesy to respect the rules of the host.

The players have a similar responsibility to the USBF (who they are representing and who are paying at least some of the bills). If they don't like the USBF's rules then they should not have agreed to follow them in the first place.

I don't know if the WBF and/or USBF even have rules that cover this.  If they don't now you can bet they will soon

I'm in furious agreement with Fred.

I would go further to say that this incident is an embarrassment for the game.

I'm sure most NBOs have codes of conduct dealing with these sort of things, for example from the CBF Code of Conduct (my emphasis added):

"2. Representatives of the CBF shall conduct themselves at all times in a fair and responsible manner.
3. Representatives shall refrain from comments or behaviours that are disrespectful, offensive, abusive, racist or sexist. In particular, behaviour that constitutes harassment or abuse will not be tolerated by CBF.
4. During the course of all activities and events, CBF representatives shall avoid behaviour that brings the CBF or the game of bridge into disrepute, including but not limited to abusive use of alcohol and non-medicinal use of drugs."

I'd be surprised if the USBF didn't have something similar.

The other thing that these ladies probably should've taken into account is that China is not a place where free speech is practiced and making political statements can and does get a lot of people (including foreigners) into hot water from time to time.

[nickf]

nickf
sydney

[Cascade]

uday, on Oct 14 2007, 03:31 PM, said:

I don't have a public opinion on the actual incidents referenced here but the debates are better than the ones on TV

Congratulations to Norway for such a strong performance.

This sounds like one of my understatements.

Winning the Bermuda Bowl is indeed a Strong performance.

[helene_t]

The bulletin does not contain the word "Bush" AFAICS. The photo posted by Nick is from his own site.

I really don't understand this concept of "representing your country". Obviously Todd and I are with a small minority here, but it is really alien to me. They may have formal obligations towards their bridge federation and their sponsors, but towards their "country"? The concept is not even meaningful, let alone valid in this context. As an employee I would sometimes say that I represent my employer, but only during payed hours, and even then not necessarily. Maybe if they were obliged to carry t-shirts with the name of a sponsor I could understand that said sponsor would appreciate decent behavior during t-shirt hours with TV coverage.

I may be biased by the fact that I happen to agree with their sentiment, and especially that I can sorta understand that some Americans feel compelled to make public statements in response to all the stupid "it is your fault" remarks they receive from us non-Americans. Suppose one of the Dutch players shouted "I didn't vote for the gay marriage" while receiving his bronze medal. If I were a Team Oranje officical I would probably instruct him not to do that again next year, but talking about punishment ..... maybe I'm overestimating my own neutrality.

[mike777]

helene_t, on Oct 14 2007, 03:51 AM, said:

The bulletin does not contain the word "Bush" AFAICS. The photo posted by Nick is from his own site.

I really don't understand this concept of "representing your country". Obviously Todd and I are with a small minority here, but it is really alien to me. They may have formal obligations towards their bridge federation and their sponsors, but towards their "country"? The concept is not even meaningful, let alone valid in this context. As an employee I would sometimes say that I represent my employer, but only during payed hours, and even then not necessarily. Maybe if they were obliged to carry t-shirts with the name of a sponsor I could understand that said sponsor would appreciate decent behavior during t-shirt hours with TV coverage.

I may be biased by the fact that I happen to agree with their sentiment, and especially that I can sorta understand that some Americans feel compelled to make public statements in response to all the stupid "it is your fault" remarks they receive from us non-Americans. Suppose one of the Dutch players shouted "I didn't vote for the gay marriage" while receiving his bronze medal. If I were a Team Oranje officical I would probably instruct him not to do that again next year, but talking about punishment ..... maybe I'm overestimating my own neutrality.

Helene...
I may miss some of your comments....but let me put it this way.

Do you owe your country of birth any duty...any duty at all?

I will rephrase.....do you owe your country of birth/adoption a duty/debt greater than your very life?

Assume...yes.........then what would you do? At the very least understand those who feel the answer is yes..........

If you have felt nothing..nothing is more important than you...than at least try and understand people who think their life is less important than.......


Assume you owe it nothing...then what would you do?

[SoTired]

I hope what I read was wrong. I did not read all the posts, but if true:

I am embarrased by the actions of the woman's team. Injecting partisan politics into bridge competition is disgusting. It reminds me of how the Russians would boycott chess tournaments and certain players for political reasons. How Arab states would boycott Israeli chess players.

The whole thing reeks.

KEEP POLITICS OUT OF SPORTING AND GAMING EVENTS

I hope the ACBL never invites any of the players involved to another championship.

[Codo]

Being a little late to this, I agree with the older guys and Justin that the price giving ceremony is no place for any political statement.

Okay in reality this is a little more complicated: YOu are surely allowed to say: I love my country, it enables me to win this great tournement and I love China because they are so nice hosts. I mean nobody blames you for waving your or the hosts flags. If you forbid all political statements, this must be forbidden too. And if you allow this, where is the border?

Tricky.

But- just watching the picture- my guess is, that this was no political statement at all. I would guess it was a kind of joke, mabye as a response to all others (Players, officals, etc.) who wanted to tell the american team that they do not like Bush and all the things he did wrong? Maybe it was just because shew was tired to be atttacked as an American just because of her president and that was meant as a funny reply?

If I am right, then it was a bad joke, but a serious: "Don´t do this again", will be more then enough.

[jkljkl]

mike777, on Oct 14 2007, 04:22 AM, said:

helene_t, on Oct 14 2007, 03:51 AM, said:

The bulletin does not contain the word "Bush" AFAICS. The photo posted by Nick is from his own site.

I really don't understand this concept of "representing your country". Obviously Todd and I are with a small minority here, but it is really alien to me.  (snip)

Helene...
(snip)
I will rephrase.....do you owe your country of birth/adoption a duty/debt greater than your very life?

Assume...yes.........then what would you do? (snip)

My sympathy goes to the Helen camp and since south africa did so well in the Bermuda Bowl ...

Ek eet my brood en drink my wyn,
en hou my harten van goede rein.
(N.P. Van Wyk Louw)


ciao stefan

[paulg]

I see this behaviour as childish, inappropriate, insensitive and arrogant.

They are also wrong. They did vote for Bush. Or is this not the USA team?

Paul

[Aberlour10]

Congratulations for Team Norway and all BBO members from this country



Photo album from the Closing Ceremony...

http://www.pzbs.pl/wyniki/2007/zagranica/b.../f08/index.html

Robert

[hrothgar]

cardsharp, on Oct 14 2007, 01:59 PM, said:

They are also wrong. They did vote for Bush. Or is this not the USA team?

Huh...

I guess elections work differently over in Scotland.

Here in the US, the person with the most votes generally wins the election. I can personally attest that I did not vote for the chimp in either presidential election, and yet there he is...

[Erkson]

My first feeling : Rats Off A Sinking Ship.

What if Bush had not been defeated in Irak ?

My second feeling : They are so arrogant that they imagine that somebody somewhere cares about whom they vote for.

[mrdct]

helene_t, on Oct 14 2007, 03:51 AM, said:

The bulletin does not contain the word "Bush" AFAICS. The photo posted by Nick is from his own site.

I really don't understand this concept of "representing your country".

Obviously the WBF wouldn't include such a picture in their own publication.

As for representing one's country, believe it or not a lot of people take a great deal of pride in having the honour to represent their country. Having been fortunate enough to have had the honour a couple of times myself, I can certainly say it is one of the proudest feelings one can experience.

At the World Youth that I played in 1993, Norway (including Geir Helgemo) won the silver medal and the passion with which they all sang their national anthem at the medal ceremony is a memory that will never leave me.

I've got no idea (and indeed no interest) in whether or not the USA1 ladies are patriotic or not; although I note that there was no shortage of USA flags being waved by and around them in some of the photo galleries of the medal ceremony that I've seen. I presume the child up on the stage is Debbie Rosenberg's - complete with the star spangled banner in his hot little hand.

Well done to Norway and I hope we will see Boye Brogeland in Canberra in January to defend his other "important" title won this year!

[hrothgar]

mrdct, on Oct 14 2007, 04:07 PM, said:

As for representing one's country, believe it or not a lot of people take a great deal of pride in having the honour to represent their country. Having been fortunate enough to have had the honour a couple of times myself, I can certainly say it is one of the proudest feelings one can experience.

At the World Youth that I played in 1993, Norway (including Geir Helgemo) won the silver medal and the passion with which they all sang their national anthem at the medal ceremony is a memory that will never leave me.

I've got no idea (and indeed no interest) in whether or not the USA1 ladies are patriotic or not; although I note that there was no shortage of USA flags being waved by and around them in some of the photo galleries of the medal ceremony that I've seen. I presume the child up on the stage is Debbie Rosenberg's - complete with the star spangled banner in his hot little hand.

Some of us are sophisticated enough to be able to distinguish between our country and the political leadership.

Indeed, I'd argue that anyone who actually cared about the principles on which the US was founded should be horrified about the behavior of Bush and his reptilian followers.
The right to free speech and political dissent are fundamental principles here in the United States.

The USA1 team might have made an anti-Bush statement, but this is very different from an anti American one.

[Walddk]

mrdct, on Oct 14 2007, 07:32 AM, said:

I'd be surprised if the USBF didn't have something similar.

They have. Try this ...

http://usbf.org/docs...Docs/Bylaws.pdf

and look at 3 e. The last part reads:

"Support only those member participants who exhibit the highest
caliber of sportsmanship, personal conduct and ethics".

Judge for yourself whether the women have violated that rule or not. I would be surprised if this case did not reach the Grievance and Appeals Committee. The trouble is that Gail Greenberg is on that committee, but she must surely be out of the decision taking if it comes that far.

Roland

[goodwintr]

What, exactly, is the point of Americans making an "Anti-Bush statement" in China, before an international audience, in the context of a contract bridge championship?

All it demonstrates is that for some people, Everything Is About Bush. There is a technical name for this: Bush Derangement Syndrome. It is sad to see an outbreak of BDS at a ceremony celebrating excellence and accomplishment in a field that should have nothing to do with national (any nation) or international politics.

TLGoodwin

[jdonn]

hrothgar, on Oct 14 2007, 06:58 AM, said:

Here in the US, the person with the most votes generally wins the election.

Key word being generally....

You (not Hrothgar, just a general 'you') try traveling to these tournaments for the first time and having your teammates teach you that if you get in any sort of trouble you are to say you're Canadian until help arrives. You might have a better idea how these ladies feel.

By the way, if the picture is to be believed it was just one person. If the others on the team are even considered for some kind of punishment that would be even larger of an outrage. What are they supposed to do, leave the stage and start booing?