[jtfanclub]

You have:
AK763
T
??7
AJ98

You open 1♠, next player bids 2♣. You partner doubles, next player passes.
What is the minimum strength of the ?? for you to bid 2NT?

If you need a more balanced hand for 2NT, suppose it's
AK763
?T
?7
AJ98

If you need some other shape than that, please choose the 'wrong shape' option.

Other details: RHO dealt and passed, everybody's vulnerable, early in a team match, and you're playing SAYC or 2/1 with a partner who you're familiar with.

[pbleighton]

The answer to this depends on the minimum expected strength of partner's double, something which came up in another thread in the last day or two - you may have participated, jt.

If it's usually 8+, I'd want a King or QJ, asking p to go on with 10+. Q107 in diamonds is a maybe. If pd could have less, I'd want more.

I will do this with your unbalanced hand in competition. As the poet Jagger sang, you can't always get what you want...

Peter

[whereagles]

In your context (sayc or 2/1) I would bid 2NT whenever I have a balanced 12-14. That's my only criteria.

[foo]

jtfanclub, on Jun 9 2007, 11:35 PM, said:

All Vul at IMPs

You have:
♠AK763♥T♦??7♣AJ98

RHO passes, You open 1♠, next player bids 2♣.  You partner doubles, next player passes.
What is the minimum strength of the ?? for you to bid 2NT?

So (pa)-1S-(2C)-X;(pa)-??

1= CHO has "held a gun to your head". You are forced to bid unless you are willing to convert the Negative X into a Penalty X.

So you are sort of asking the wrong question.

It's not how many points you need to bid 2N, or what shape you must have. It's what's the best call you can make with what you have been dealt.

Hands with weak ♣'s have to have their HCP somewhere else.
a= a side suit.
b= more values in ♠

2= If you can't handle CHO forcing you to bid like this, or you have a hand where you don't know what to do if this sequence happens, then you do not have an opening bid in the first place.


With the given hand, I rebid 2N in tempo.


3= This sort of situation is exactly why there are minimum shape +and+ value requirements on Responder's Negative X's.

[pbleighton]

Quote

In your context (sayc or 2/1) I would bid 2NT whenever I have a balanced 12-14. That's my only criteria.

Huh? You wouldn't bid 2H with heart support?

You would bid 2NT routinely with 12 opposite 8+?

Wow!

Peter

[mr1303]

If I have 4 card heart support and 5 spades for me to open 1S, then I don't have a balanced hand.

If I have a 5332 hand with 5 mediocre spades and a club stopper, then I will rebid 2NT (if I have 12-14 HCP) in response to partner's negative double.

If I had 15-17 I would have opened 1NT

If I had 18-19 I will cue-bid 3C on the way to 3NT

[whereagles]

pbleighton, on Jun 10 2007, 01:17 PM, said:

Quote

In your context (sayc or 2/1) I would bid 2NT whenever I have a balanced 12-14. That's my only criteria.

1. Huh? You wouldn't bid 2H with heart support?

2. You would bid 2NT routinely with 12 opposite 8+? Wow!

1. If I had heart support, I'd have a 54. Not really a balanced hand.

2. If the alternative is faking a 3-card red suit, then I prefer to bid 2NT, yes. I can't cater for everything, so I play statistics and hope won't always have 8 hcp.

[pbleighton]

Quote

2. If the alternative is faking a 3-card red suit, then I prefer to bid 2NT, yes. I can't cater for everything, so I play statistics and hope won't always have 8 hcp.

So with KJ9xx-KJx-Axx-xx you will bid 2NT, not 2H?

Peter

[cherdano]

I disagree with bidding 2N on a weak NT.

[pbleighton]

Quote

I disagree with bidding 2N on a weak NT.

So do I, in general, but you could construct hands where it would be the least evil, something like KJ10xx-xx-xxx-AKQ. They're rare, though.

Peter

[foo]

The thing about Negative X's, like all forcing calls, is that CHO has put you in a corner.
You must bid, or you must convert the X to Penalty.

That means you are often going to have to make some choices you may not be 100% happy with (another reason for the value requirements for Responder's X).

Let's look closer at 1S-(2C)-X-(pa);??
Depending on your hand, Opener may have to
a= raise Responder's implied minor.
Axxxx.Qxx.AQxx.x

b= rebid NT lighter on values (and stops!) than they'd like.
=5233 12-14 with uninspiring S's: KTxxx.AQ.Jxx.KTx

c= rebid the unbid Major with only 3 cards.
Axxxx.KQT.Kx.xxx

d= rebid a 5 card suit.
AQxxx.AQ.Jxx.xxx 2S is the least lie.

e= ...and sometimes you will convert the X to penalty.


You =are= going to hold such hands ATT ITRW, so get used to it and be prepared.

[jdonn]

There is no diamond holding where I would rebid notrump on the hand given, I would usually pass.

[hatchett]

I agree with Jdonn, I would pass with this hand whatever my ♦s were

[skjaeran]

hatchett, on Jun 10 2007, 10:57 PM, said:

I agree with Jdonn, I would pass with this hand whatever my ♦s were

Me too.

[foo]

jdonn, on Jun 10 2007, 02:54 PM, said:

There is no diamond holding where I would rebid notrump on the hand given, I would usually pass.

That can be a "deep" position to take when Responder is an Unpassed Hand as is here.

Particularly @ Red or especially @ Unfavorable. Even more so when playing IMPs.

I'd be even more leery of pass converting to penalty if Responder could have a 3 card Limit Raise as one of their hand types.


You'd better be very sure that the odds favor a better score defending 2♣X then they do with Us Declaring.

[foo]

For those worrying about bidding 2N with variations of the OP hand:

♠AK763♥T♦xx7♣AJ98
K&R evaluator says this hand has the trick taking strength of the average 15 HCP

Change xxx to Txx and it goes up to K&R value 15.15
Jxx => K&R 15.30
Qxx => K&R 16.35

Given that a 2 level Negative X promises the trick taking strength of at least 8 HCP, and that one needs about 23 Playing Points to have a > 1/2 expectation of making 2N,

=> QED rebidding 2N with any variation of the OP hand, even with xxx in ♦'s, is reasonable.

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Jun 10 2007, 02:54 PM, said:

There is no diamond holding where I would rebid notrump on the hand given, I would usually pass.

Interesting. I thought I was crazy for doing that in MPs. I would not have guessed that some experts would be willing to do so in IMPs.

So, jdonn and skaeran, can you tell me what your typical hand for a 2NT call would be?

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Jun 10 2007, 11:34 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 10 2007, 02:54 PM, said:

There is no diamond holding where I would rebid notrump on the hand given, I would usually pass.

Interesting. I thought I was crazy for doing that in MPs. I would not have guessed that some experts would be willing to do so in IMPs.

So, jdonn and skaeran, can you tell me what your typical hand for a 2NT call would be?

2NT I would ideally have, say, AKxxx xx Qxx AJx. If this hand was weaker I would rebid 2♦ instead and hope for the best. As it is, on the hand you gave I find pass totally clear regardless of what the diamonds are. I have 4-5 tricks, partner will contribute something, hearts (which look to be their real fit or secondary fit) aren't break, and partner is about to make a great lead.

And the fact that it is imps doesn't matter much to me, even if they were to make it would not be game, and it would probably mean 2NT was going down, and there is no way they are getting overtricks.

Everything I just said assumes xxx of diamonds. Of course all the better if that is improved.