[Fluffy]

I would open this hand 1♦, and would double 1♣ opening

Over 1♦ I like none of the options , I am close between pass and 1♥, I went for pass.

I wouldn't criticize a double either, but not my style.

1NT is wrong on offensive values (2 HCP short), only if partner doubles them we will have our bid (not very likelly)

[P_Marlowe]

Pass, the suit quality is terrible.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on Jun 7 2007, 12:12 PM, said:

OK, I'm convinced, Frances (and others). I'll bid 1♥ at the table, without squirming.

One more step towards becoming an advanced player, I guess.

P.S. If you had one more HCP, say the AJx of diamonds, would that make a difference?

1NT gets a real option.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[vuroth]

My novice bid is pass, but I see I'm in the minority.

I know I'm out of practice, but I may get the chance to bid again. And if I don't, then maybe it was never meant to be.

The way I see it, if I pass, partner will be open to the possibility that I have an opening hand which isn't suitable for an overcall. If I overcall, partner will expect me to have better hearts than I do.

At this point in my development, I'd rather lose the hand because opponents preempted and I couldn't fit a bid in on the second round than because I misled my partner, however small the lie was.

0.02

V

[nige1]

mike777, on Jun 6 2007, 03:20 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

(1D)=??

---

IMO _P_ = 10, 1 ♥ = 9, _X_ = 8, 1N = 5, 1 ♠ = 4.
1 ♥ asks for the wrong lead and may prompt an unwelcome two or thee card raise.
1 ♠ may precipitate an auction even worse for your heart.
1 N is under strength and may wrong side the contract.
_X_ is off shape and you don't relish a club response.
_P_ postpones the problem to the next round if there is one.

[awm]

It's pretty easy to construct hands where you can make 4♥ opposite (say) a three-card limit raise, and where no other game has play. In some sense the weak suit makes the hand better for a heart game, since it's not like you're going to reel off five heart tricks in 3NT.

When I'm explaining overcalls to intermediates, I try to make the point that there are four major reasons to bid:

(1) In case it's our hand to go plus.
(2) In case we need to find a sacrifice.
(3) To help partner on lead.
(4) To take bidding space from the opponents.

And four major reasons to pass:

(1) Don't help the opponents locate our cards in the play/bidding.
(2) Don't go for a number.
(3) Don't convince partner to make a bad lead.
(4) Don't make it hard for partner to figure out whose hand it is.

Having a good suit helps a lot with reasons to bid (2) and (3), and also helps avoid negative reasons (2) and (3). But these things are priorities mostly when the opponents hold the majority of the values. With the hand given, 14 hcp with lots of controls, there is every reason to believe it's our hand to go plus. I bet if we gave this hand as a poll for opening bid playing a natural, strong NT system, it'd be almost universal to open 1♥.

[nige1]

awm, on Jun 9 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

It's pretty easy to construct hands where you can make 4♥ opposite (say) a three-card limit raise, and where no other game has play. In some sense the weak suit makes the hand better for a heart game, since it's not like you're going to reel off five heart tricks in 3NT.

When I'm explaining overcalls to intermediates, I try to make the point that there are four major reasons to bid:

(1) In case it's our hand to go plus.
(2) In case we need to find a sacrifice.
(3) To help partner on lead.
(4) To take bidding space from the opponents.

And four major reasons to pass:

(1) Don't help the opponents locate our cards in the play/bidding.
(2) Don't go for a number.
(3) Don't convince partner to make a bad lead.
(4) Don't make it hard for partner to figure out whose hand it is.

Having a good suit helps a lot with reasons to bid (2) and (3), and also helps avoid negative reasons (2) and (3). But these things are priorities mostly when the opponents hold the majority of the values. With the hand given, 14 hcp with lots of controls, there is every reason to believe it's our hand to go plus. I bet if we gave this hand as a poll for opening bid playing a natural, strong NT system, it'd be almost universal to open 1♥.

I'm an intermediate player on BBO and I can understand and appreciate awm 's explanation as to why this is an automatic 1 ♥ opener. I am not yet completely persuaded, however, that it qualifies as a sensible 1 ♥ overcall. (Although Frances Hinden agrees -- and she is almost always right). Hence I would be grateful to awm if he would kindly show us some of his easy to construct three-card raise hands for partner -- consistent with RHO's 1 ♦ opening -- where no other game has play but 4 ♥ is a good contract.

[jdonn]

nige1, on Jun 9 2007, 06:12 PM, said:

I'm an intermediate player on BBO and I can understand and appreciate awm 's explanation as to why this is an automatic 1 ♥ opener. I am not yet completely persuaded, however, that it qualifies as a sensible 1 ♥ overcall. (Although Frances Hinden agrees -- and she is almost always right). Hence I would be grateful to awm if he would kindly show us some of his easy to construct three-card raise hands for partner -- consistent with RHO's 1 ♦ opening -- where no other game has play but 4 ♥ is a good contract.

With all these dummies, 4♥ is either cold on a 3-2 heart break, or at least way better than 3NT on the expected diamond lead. And they all leave 14 or 15 for RHO to have an opening bid.

Qxx
Axx
Kx
Qxxxx


xxxx
AKQ
xx
QJxx

xxx
KQx
xx
AQxxx

xx
AKx
xxx
Axxxx

Anyway it's a little moot to me, since I'm more concerned with overcalling for partscore than game reasons. If it's our hand, there is no reason at all we shouldn't be in a 5-3 heart fit at any level.

[vuroth]

None of those hands look like anything I'd pass, in the balancing position. Again, doesn't partner know that I may have a 13-16 HCP hand with a flaw that prevents me from overcalling?

[jtfanclub]

vuroth, on Jun 9 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

None of those hands look like anything I'd pass, in the balancing position. Again, doesn't partner know that I may have a 13-16 HCP hand with a flaw that prevents me from overcalling?

That's what feels so strange about this.

We had a different example, of a far more powerful (although only slightly stronger in hcp) 1-4-4-4 distribution, which the experts were almost universally passing over 1♦, although intermediate like me were finding a bid (1NT, 1 of the major, something). Tough to believe that they're worried about this hand being passed out but not that one.

[jdonn]

No one is worried it will get passed out when there is game, I was just answering the question asked. I am bidding purely for the partscore battle, game is just a bonus. Say it goes 1♦ p 1♠ p 1NT, now what? Pass and find partner with three hearts and lose a double partscore swing? Or 2♥ and get creamed if partner has a singleton? It's so much safer to just overcall the first time and either he raises you, or they bid on instead of doubling you. Plus I feel like my point keeps getting ignored that, though a heart lead COULD be a disaster, it (more likely in my opinion, but at least often) could be a great lead. Set up the long suit in the hand with 4 entries, how bad is that likely to be? Better if partner leads Jxxxx of clubs?

[nige1]

jdonn, on Jun 9 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

With all these dummies, 4♥ is either cold on a 3-2 heart break, or at least way better than 3NT on the expected diamond lead. And they all leave 14 or 15 for RHO to have an opening bid.

♠ Q x x ♥ A x x  ♦ K x ♣ Q x x x x
♠ x x x x ♥ A K Q ♦ x x ♣ Q J x x
♠ x x x ♥ K Q x ♦ x x ♣ A Q x x x
♠ x x ♥ A K x ♦ x x x ♣ A x x x x

Anyway it's a little moot to me, since I'm more concerned with overcalling for partscore than game reasons. If it's our hand, there is no reason at all we shouldn't be in a 5-3 heart fit at any level.

Great examples, Jdonn. Thank you. In some cases, 4 ♥ could be fraught on a diamond lead and none seem to depend simply on a heart-break but that's just quibbling because we would all be delighted to play in 4 ♥ opposite your examples.

I rate pass as slightly better than 1 ♥ because I hope that my partner will protect not only on hands like your examples But also on the more common weaker hands with tenaces where it might be better that he became declarer. For example hands with the ♦ Qx or ♦JTx. In particular if partner can scrape up a protective no-trump, and we play transfers in this context, then partner can declare heart contracts.

[skjaeran]

This is an absolutely automatic 1♥ overcall to me.
I'd never consider passing, and 1NT is out. I'd not upgrade a 14-count with a duce high 5-bagger to 15.

We need to get in at once, else we might be out of this auction for ever, and lose the partscore battle.

[helene_t]

1♥. Second choice: pass or dbl.

For 1N I need some source of tricks and/or a posiitional ♦ guard and/or a real lack of alternatives.

[Codo]

1 ♥ automatic for the reasons given.

For any other bid I need another hand.

And I don´t buy this stuff from the wrong lead from pd.
I would rate the possibily of a heart lead to be good/neutral/bad as about 5to4to1.
To set up the long suit in the hand with all the stoppers as soon as possible sounds like a winning concept.

And I don´t buy the concept that pd will always reopen with sufficent hands in 4. position. If it is a partscore battle he does not have the values for that.
And if we are on for game he may pass with some 10 HCPs hands with Diamond length.

[Fluffy]

♥ is not gonna be the wrong lead, but it might be the wrong trump to play.