[kenrexford]

I do not understand the problem with using fourth-suit forcing after 1♥-P-2♣-P-2♦ when you might or might not have spades.

If 2NT is available also, then 2♠ seems to show either real spades (4-card) or no spade stopper. If Opener has spade support, he can bid 3♠, which does not agree spades, and you will now bid 3NT with the "I needed spades stopped" hand. If you had spades, you will presumable cuebid something at the four-level, or bid 4♠, keeping in mind that Opener must be 4540 to raise spades.

If a 4-3 fit might make sense, Opener will presumably bid 2NT, and you can hunt and peck around.

If 2♠ was simply waiting, planning a delayed raise of diamonds, you can still do that after most calls. After 3♠, or 3NT, you are preempted out of making a delayed raise that would not have been interesting to partner.

It seems to me that the one step gained by having 2♥ be the waiting bid, thereby giving up an etire level before hearts may be agreed, is penny rich but pound poor. But, that's just me.

[mike777]

mikeh, on Feb 28 2007, 11:39 AM, said:

mike777, on Feb 27 2007, 09:45 PM, said:

Great responses, thanks. Wow I feel like the only person in the world who may play 2h here as a slam try, non dead minimum, 3 cards. I would cue an ace next, though I could understand and might raise clubs now with Kxx or something. I would not expect  to show shape with say 2=5=4=2 unless I did not have an ace.

That means with say:

Ax....KQxxx....KTxx...QT

I would cuebid 2s and not rebid 2nt.

Mike, how would you bid, as responder, with xxx Kx KQx AJxxx, having responded 2♣ and hearing 2♦?

If you say '2♠ of course', how do you bid with AQJ10 x Kx AJxxxx after the 1♥ bidder rebid 2♦ over 2♥?

Bear in mind that partner may be 4=5=4=0 or that a 4-3 ♠ fit may be the best spot.

Bidding 2♠ on both hand types seems more dangerous than using 2♥ as preference or real support.. to be clarified next call.

While it is necessary to fudge, especially in wide-range-opening methods such as 2/1, the rule should be to fudge as little and as cheaply as possible. Reserving the 2♥ preference, which is the call that preserves the maximum bidding space, for ambiguous bids, leaving more-space-consuming bids as more tightly defined, is a logical approach to constructive bidding.

Furthermore, I believe it to be a huge mistake to use this sequence (responder bids 2♥ over 2♦)as a slam move... as absolutely promising some slam interest. Slams are great, and I am probably as big a fan of aggressive slam investigation as most, but game and choice of games are far more common. Plus, when we have slam interest, we have, by definition, more bidding space than when we are interested only in the correct game. It therefore makes sense to use low level bids to probe for the best game, while permitting either bidder to express, later, interest in higher things.

Since partner opens on Junk, I can only bid 1nt semiforce, yes he can pass, with your example hand.

Depending on how you make it 14 hcp, I am not sure what my rebid might be, depends. Might very well be 2s fsf.

Yes with your second hand I would bid 2S, fsf. This hand is not that MUCH more than partner will expect for this auction. .

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Feb 28 2007, 12:32 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 28 2007, 12:25 PM, said:

I do not understand the problem with using fourth-suit forcing after 1♥-P-2♣-P-2♦ when you might or might not have spades.

I'm pretty sure that's what Versace plays because Jacobs told us it was natural and Versace said "what????? may have spade...may not have spade..." then Jacobs was like "????????????" and Versace was like "no stopper...or spades..."

/random

Yeah, I and Versace, two birds of a feather.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

[FrancesHinden]

mike777, on Feb 27 2007, 10:03 PM, said:

"The problem is compounded by the need to know what the 2♥ bid shows. I suspect that the majority uses this sequence to show preference rather than primary support, altho primary support may exist."

For this post 2H means whatever it means in your style of 2/1.

Yeah, well, in my style of 2/1

2D = any hand without 4 clubs, 6 hearts, 4 spades, 5 diamonds or 15-17 3=5=3=2 and 2H is a relay...

[Fluffy]

shape, but I call ♦KQ10x as extra shape. not this case but on a similar case I can try to show AQx as a 4 card.