[Sigi_BC84]

pbleighton, on Mar 31 2006, 07:23 PM, said:

Now, what do Europeans blame themselves for?

We should blame ourselves for brown-nosing with the US administration (and China)...

--Sigi

[han]

helene_t, on Mar 31 2006, 01:15 PM, said:

Hannie, on Mar 31 2006, 06:53 PM, said:

I believe that there is a large scale bridge conspiracy against me, and it involves the dealer program and several of my partners. How else is it possible that someone with my talents so often makes bids that work out so badly?

That's one of my favorites as well.

You too? So perhaps this is a global conspiracy against Talented Dutch bridge players. They are afraid of us Helene!


"We blame USA for Vietnam, Chile, Argentina, Haiti, Korea etc.
We blame USA for General Franco, General Pinochet, for Salazar.
We blame USA for Guantanamo, Abu Graibh.
We blame USA death penalties."

As a good U.S. liberal, I accept, and indeed, wallow in guilt for these things.

Now, what do Europeans blame themselves for?

Peter

Good post Peter, as usual. I do suggest that you stop feeling guilty for things that other people do who happen to be citizens of the same country. I certainly don't feel guilty for all the bad parts of recent Dutch history.

[pbleighton]

"I do suggest that you stop feeling guilty for things that other people do who happen to be citizens of the same country."

My guilt is conveniently abstract - I hardly feel bad at all

Peter

[the saint]

Badmonster, on Mar 31 2006, 04:12 PM, said:

My pet theory is that rich politicians are cutting the educational budget in America in order to promote ignorance so that the rich elite can get away with screwing the poor more readily. Perhaps they're trying to develop a slave class. I also believe that the media is complicit. After all, we know all the details of of the lives of people who are kidnapped or murdered, but have no idea what is going on in the world vis a vis finance and politics.

They are cutting the educational budget so they don't see the light and vote republican (I would mention religion being used to control the population through fear in its place, but its been done elsewhere)

[the saint]

csdenmark, on Mar 31 2006, 06:46 PM, said:

pbleighton, on Mar 31 2006, 08:23 PM, said:

"We blame USA for Vietnam, Chile, Argentina, Haiti, Korea etc.
We blame USA for General Franco, General Pinochet, for Salazar.
We blame USA for Guantanamo, Abu Graibh.
We blame USA death penalties."

As a good U.S. liberal, I accept, and indeed, wallow in guilt for these things.

Now, what do Europeans blame themselves for?

Peter

For doing too little against USA. For Hitler, for Mussolini, for Zalasar, for Franco, for Papadoupoulos. For colonialism mostly in Africa. Poor records are nearly everywhere: Congo, Nigeria, South-Africa - you name them........

We Brits have our sins in the past too. The trick is to learn from them. That is what makes us better people. Developing a social conscience is mankind's only hope of not doing serious harm to ourselves and the planet.

[joshs]

Right now the world is watching while there is a genocide of the people of southern sudan (Darfur). Abouut 400,000 dead civilians over the last couple of years. Everyone should insist that their governments steps in to help these people...

[Rain]

What? Nobody who's posted believes in Aliens?

I had no suspicion about giant cover-ups until I read Dan Brown. Now I believe (having never been to Europe) that...

-Every bit of France is filled with symbolism. Nothing is what it seems. Every building is actually a secret pointer to something else.

-Ditto Rome

-Early American leaders were all members of a secret society, but they like to leave clues about themselves in dollar bills, architecture, wordings, etc.

-America has lots of top secret agencies with unlimited budgets that the CIA doesn't know about. They already invented the cure for cancer but can't publish because then it'll upset the world's ecology.

-NASA can't be trusted.

-The top creative talents all think in symbols. Freudian had it right. If a kid draws a perfect circle in math class, he probably is actually alluding to fulfilment that can only be found by moon worship. He may also be hungry and thinking of roti prata, but that's also symbolism for you.

The towering building beside the lake was a sexually frustrated architect's vision of life. Or else his secret fraternity's double handshake is 0l and he's trying to reveal to the world that he's a proud member.

[mike777]

"What? Nobody who's posted believes in Aliens?"

Of course we believe we have millions of aliens cross our borders every year. Who the heck does not believe in Aliens?

[luke warm]

Hannie, on Mar 31 2006, 05:44 PM, said:

helene_t, on Mar 31 2006, 01:15 PM, said:

Hannie, on Mar 31 2006, 06:53 PM, said:

I believe that there is a large scale bridge conspiracy against me, and it involves the dealer program and several of my partners. How else is it possible that someone with my talents so often makes bids that work out so badly?

That's one of my favorites as well.

You too? So perhaps this is a global conspiracy against Talented Dutch bridge players. They are afraid of us Helene!


"We blame USA for Vietnam, Chile, Argentina, Haiti, Korea etc.
We blame USA for General Franco, General Pinochet, for Salazar.
We blame USA for Guantanamo, Abu Graibh.
We blame USA death penalties."

As a good U.S. liberal, I accept, and indeed, wallow in guilt for these things.

Now, what do Europeans blame themselves for?

Peter

Good post Peter, as usual. I do suggest that you stop feeling guilty for things that other people do who happen to be citizens of the same country. I certainly don't feel guilty for all the bad parts of recent Dutch history.

all the bash america posts make me sad... the last stats i have (ca 2003) show that the u.s. gave an estimated $241 billion in charity to the rest of the world, which equals about 2.3 percent of u.s. gross domestic product.... check out how much other 'developed' countries give, as a % of gdp... anybody close?

it's undoubtably true that a lot (though far from most) of that giving was to countries where america had some national interest... so what? are other countries different?

america has fought wars for those who now belittle her and who actually hate her... one might debate the pros and cons of freedom, but that freedom has costs associated with it seems self-evident... and thruout history, america has been prepared to pay those costs, quite often for those who feel no gratitude and who even work to undermine the very things that make america (and them) free today

some countries hate america because she is free... some hate her because they are now free to do so, despots and dictators having been disposed of by the hated america... it's easy to ignore history, it's easy to look back from relative safety to a less safe time, and it's easy to criticize a country that has done so much for so many for so long

there are many posters from many countries voicing the same anti-american litany... but it's especially sad to see americans do it... america is no more right in her policies 100% of the time than any other country... but america is my country, and i would not choose to live anywhere else... furthermore, i would not choose to live in a world in which the things america has done for others had been left undone

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Apr 1 2006, 05:32 AM, said:

all the bash america posts make me sad... the last stats i have (ca 2003) show that the u.s. gave an estimated $241 billion in charity to the rest of the world, which equals about 2.3 percent of u.s. gross domestic product.... check out how much other 'developed' countries give, as a % of gdp... anybody close?

Since you asked:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Foreign_...ous_Misers.html

[luke warm]

the article you posted is foreign aid... my post above speaks of charities... most charity giving from the u.s. is from individuals, and when i used "u.s." in the post i meant all donations to charity that came from this country... you are quoting the amount given by the government only, in the form of foreign aid... here's an article showing what i was speaking of

http://www.aafrc.org/press_releases/trustr...ricansgive.html

[Rain]

Quote

luke warm: all the bash america posts make me sad... the last stats i have (ca 2003) show that the u.s. gave an estimated $241 billion in charity to the rest of the world, which equals about 2.3 percent of u.s. gross domestic product.... check out how much other 'developed' countries give, as a % of gdp... anybody close?

You're talking about usa (gov + private sector) aid to international people here.
The article you posted to clarify includes all charitable giving, within usa shores and outside, not just for international aid.

My personal opinion is that American charitable giving is generous enough for the most part. Its impossible to help everyone. Help who you can, and the skeptic in me chimes in also about hidden agendas. But its better than not giving aid at all?

[pbleighton]

"america is no more right in her policies 100% of the time than any other country"

I agree with this, but the Bush administration would not. Hence Iraq.

We go wrong when we believe the "greatest country in the history of the world" nonsense, and do bad things in the name of our national destiny, our entirely fictitious cultural and moral superiority, etc. We aren't the first, nor will we be the last, to fall victim to imperial hubris. It is always sad when a good country (and we can be a VERY good country indeed) commits bad acts.

It's especially sad to see Americans who won't abide legitimate criticism of their country, from foreigners or U.S. citizens. This very common attitude perpetuates our mistakes. IMO the main (only?) reason Europe suffers less from national hubris is that the horrible experience of two world wars on their soil made them much humbler.

What will we have to experience in order to come to our senses? The Iraq horror will probably slow us down for a bit. However, I fear that we are headed for nuclear catastrophe, possible in any event, but made much more likely by the very policies designed to stop it.

I really wish that this was a conspiracy theory.

Peter

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Apr 1 2006, 05:56 AM, said:

the article you posted is foreign aid... my post above speaks of charities... most charity giving from the u.s. is from individuals, and when i used "u.s." in the post i meant all donations to charity that came from this country... you are quoting the amount given by the government only, in the form of foreign aid...

Jimmy, it almost looks as if you didn't bother to read the article...
Did you get to the second half which explicly deals with contributions from privaye charities and individuals?

"While exact figures are impossible to come by, the highest estimates from recent years put individual U.S. donations to overseas aid at 0.16 percent of national income, according to the Center for Global Development's Steven Radelet. (More conservative estimates suggest that this number may actually be as low as 0.03 percent; an OECD estimate put the number at 0.06 percent.) Add the optimistic 0.16 percent estimate to the 0.16 percent of national income in government donations and you reach a combined 0.32 percent of national income-which is still less than the governmental aid alone of roughly half of the world's wealthiest nations."

[luke warm]

richard said:

Jimmy, it almost looks as if you didn't bother to read the article...
Did you get to the second half which explicly deals with contributions from privaye charities and individuals?

no, i didn't see that... i guess the true facts are dependent upon which authority one appeals to... also, rain is correct that the numbers used in my example were for all charitable giving, not just overseas

peter said:

We go wrong when we believe the "greatest country in the history of the world" nonsense~~It's especially sad to see Americans who won't abide legitimate criticism of their country, from foreigners or U.S. citizens. This very common attitude perpetuates our mistakes. IMO the main (only?) reason Europe suffers less from national hubris is that the horrible experience of two world wars on their soil made them much humbler.

why isn't america the greatest country in the world? pick another country you think is greater and imagine living there in a world in which america has chosen to withdraw all economic, military, and political aid... often, those who complain the loudest have benefitted the most because of america's direct involvement... have you read, say since 1960 forward, anything that suggests another country feels any gratitude at all to america for things she has done? do you agree that some of the worst criticism of this country comes from people living in places that would not even exist but for america's butting into their business?

i'll abide legitimate criticism... i'll even level criticism at this gov't, on occasion... i personally wish we weren't in iraq at this moment, for example.. there are a lot of policies implemented by both the president and the congress with which i disagree... but imo there's a big difference between disagreement and outright hatred... you might think 'hatred' is too strong a word, but i don't

a country *is* a country based on common language and culture... the u.s., despite your saying the opposite, has a common culture... however, if this country does fall it's my opinion it will come from within... the dilution of this culture, starting with the disavowal of a common language

sometimes i do wish america would just withdraw from the world stage and take care of all our problems at home... make all points of entry safer (including space), strengthen our education and health systems, ignore the rest of the world until we figure out how to make this country better than it is... but if we did that, there would be those who still hate us, who still criticize us, from without - and from within

[sceptic]

Quote

america has fought wars for those who now belittle her and who actually hate her...

I actually believe that America has not fought a war it did not want to, I believe, that our relationship with America has benefits, but I do not believe America is out for anyone else but it self, and I am convinced if all that came out of Northern Afirica was camels dung, they would never fight a war there

[sceptic]

Can some one explain to me why no one has ever gone to war to help the Tibetans?

[luke warm]

sceptic, on Apr 1 2006, 09:52 AM, said:

Quote

america has fought wars for those who now belittle her and who actually hate her...

I actually believe that America has not fought a war it did not want to, I believe, that our relationship with America has benefits, but I do not believe America is out for anyone else but it self, and I am convinced if all that came out of Northern Afirica was camels dung, they would never fight a war there

it's true that national interest must play a role (or should play such a role) in major involvements such as war... sometimes not (our civil war for example, though even that could be argued), but usually so... are we so different from england in this regard? however, if america was only out for herself, i can think of much better ways to show that...

i take exception to peter's earlier remarks concerning america's imperialistic motives... if that was true, it would be manifestly so... also, it would be relatively easy to carve out an empire, given the will to take the necessary empire-building steps... some of the very things we are criticized for came about because of the imperialistic bents of countries such as england and france... they both have empires in their histories... we don't

Quote

Can some one explain to me why no one has ever gone to war to help the Tibetans?

because the will doesn't exist to end such a war before it really started... and yeah, national interest does enter into it

[sceptic]

I am not anti American at all, but, I do not belive this statement is valid

Quote

they both have empires in their histories... we don't

we got our empire by taking what we wanted colonising or what ever words you wish to describe taking something by force.

Take India, well killed loads of people (Indians) and took over their country, hundreds of years later we gave it back, so no longer are we the mighty British empire we may once have been. I am not sure exactly as I was not there and books sometimes have a way of distorting things but we helped them in some areas and now they will one day be a great power themselves (depending on your view I suppose)


When will America give the Indians back their country?

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Apr 1 2006, 06:11 PM, said:

i take exception to peter's earlier remarks concerning america's imperialistic motives... if that was true, it would be manifestly so... also, it would be relatively easy to carve out an empire, given the will to take the necessary empire-building steps... some of the very things we are criticized for came about because of the imperialistic bents of countries such as england and france... they both have empires in their histories... we don't

Grow up...

The difference between the US and the France/British boils down to genocide...

Post 1800, the British / French colonial attempts took place in either Eurasia or Africa. In Eurasia, the native populations had resistence to the same set of germs as the Europeans. In Africa, the situation was level. The African's had little resistance against the Europeans but the Europeans also fell vicitim to a wide variety of VERY nasty local diseases.

If we turn to North America, the native inhabitant had virtually no resistence to small pox or influenza. Equally significant the lack of large scale animal husbandry meant that they didn't have their own "stores" of lethal pathogens. Disease wiped enormous numbers of native Americans. Of course, when these diseases didn't spread on their own, the US was more than happy to deliberately supply smallpox laden blankets to be on the safe side.

Our behaviour was no better. We just made sure that there were no witnesses.