BBO Discussion Forums: A third round control before Aces - BBO Discussion Forums

There seem to be situations where one needs a mechanism to find a third round control in a specific suit before looking for Aces because the usual order may get you too high. For example, you open 1♥ holding
♠K 4
♥K Q J 9 4
♦A K 6 3 2
♣A

Partner bids 3♥ and you are missing two Aces and also need to know if partner has ♦xx or Q(*). Some partneships have 4♦ available as an asking bid and can then follow-up with a version of Blackwood.

Is there anything known in general about the sort of situations in which control asking bids are the first priority? And about the most effective methods of making them?

Hi! When a 9-card fit is known (as here presumably), some play 3NT is start controls while 4m is a strong 2-suiter, 55 or more, not denying controls in the skipped suits (with H you can play 3S start of controls and 3NT 2-suiter 65 in that case). It helps partner evaluate if his hands fits well. It will not solve everything, though. But partner with QD will be extremely happy and will move forward and not bid 4H.

DLyons, on 2018-May-14, 13:02, said:

If you're concerned about such things, why are you still playing limit raises? Seems most pairs that are concerned about such things have switching to something like a 2♣ forcing, quasi-natural, or a 2NT relay. Immediate jump to 3M wastes a lot of bidding space.

You could use Serious / Non Serious 3NT, and Last Train.
At the end of the day, you want to find out, if partner has club wastage,
after a 9 card fit in a major is found, giving up on playing 3NT frees the
3NT bid ( with hearts as trump, switching the meaning of 3S and 3NT, frees
another step).
(assuming you switched) 3S in the given seq. showes SI, asks partner to cue bid.
The first cue should be honor based, i.e. Ace or King, if partner finds a club cue bid,
you can give up on slam, he only has 10-12 and he told you, that he has club wastage.
If he finds a spade cue, you know it is the Ace.

With kind regards
Marlowe

P_Marlowe, on 2018-May-15, 04:10, said:

Does this really help though? Isn't the grand still a good chance opposite Axx Axxx xx Kxxx?

smerriman, on 2018-May-15, 14:26, said:

If you make a move with 3NT facing a limited 11-12 bid, you are looking
for magic cards.
Partner can go on over 4H, if he has magic cards, and a hand with 2 Aces in a
10-12 hand, certainly qualifies.
This wont end up playing the grand slam, but small slam will be reached.
To detect the usefulness off xx in a suit never bid, is nearly impossible in a natural system.

With kind regards
Marlowe

P_Marlowe, on 2018-May-15, 22:38, said:

I don't think so(..in a natural system).It was or could be possible with the Culbertson Asking Bid i.e. in the hand indicated with two Aces and a King 3♠-3NT, 4♣-4NT, 5♦-5NT knowing about third round control(=xx or Queen) in diamond suit.(Lovera)