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[consoldated in response to Hrothgar's post on Dec. 28th] -- please delete.
Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?
#8722
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Posted 2017-December-30, 16:17
Winstonm, on 2017-December-29, 16:32, said:
Btw, you seem not to know me too well so I thought I might help. Here is a list of the sources I routinely go to for news and information: Washington Post, New York Times, Vox, Huffington Post, Politico, Reuters, McClatchy, Bloomberg, Daily Beast, ISA Today, LA Times, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, public tv and radio.
You probably not that I do not read, watch, or listen to Breitbart, Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh.
In the early 1990s, I was a dedicated watcher of Fox and I listened to Rush. The key issue witch you seem unwilling to even want to know is: what caused me to move to change? I can assure you of one thing: those two entities have not changed.
But I know from personal experience that when you are ensnared by the Fox/Rush/Hannity-types right wing media bubble, what caused others to leave is not of importance to you, is it?
You probably not that I do not read, watch, or listen to Breitbart, Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh.
In the early 1990s, I was a dedicated watcher of Fox and I listened to Rush. The key issue witch you seem unwilling to even want to know is: what caused me to move to change? I can assure you of one thing: those two entities have not changed.
But I know from personal experience that when you are ensnared by the Fox/Rush/Hannity-types right wing media bubble, what caused others to leave is not of importance to you, is it?
Thank you for an honest listing of the sources and how you came to where you are now in your views. You're obviously very intelligent and well spoken for your point of view. However, I do wonder if you realize just how much you are ensnared in the progressive/liberal left wing media bubble.
In fact, I come from the opposite direction in my political outlook. I grew up as a Democrat and remained so through the Nixon years. But at some point in the seventies, I realized how out of touch Democrats were with the workings of the American economy. Most of that was the result of getting a good grounding in economics in business school. I understood that the things that they were recommending were exactly the wrong thing to straighten out the stagflation that was going on. So, I changed outlook and have never had any reason to regret that decision.
I've never listened to Rush Limbaugh or subscribed to his version of conservatism. And I rarely watch Hannity for more than a few minutes. I actually try to watch CNN and MSNBC some, but often find the comments and analysis so outrageously biased or false that I turn them off. I don't ever watch certain out of touch commentators like MSNBC's Joy Reid or Rachel Maddow. Even my liberal friends say their views are too radical. I hope you will notice I didn't refer to progressive/liberal bubble as the Reid/Maddow-type left wing media bubble. That's a form of guilt by association that I will not engage in.
If anything, the thing I'm worried most about is the neurotic paranoia/mass hysteria the left has about Donald Trump as President. From election night on, the outrage, hatred and abhorrence of President Trump has been continued and palpable. Mostly, it has manifested itself in a near insane obsession with the idea of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. Progressives are dead certain it occurred and then try to conflate everything as proof of that "certainty". IMO, it gets ridiculous at times.
As for President Trump's twitter tweets, some would be better if not made. But, you're getting an unvarnished view of his opinions, not some watered down, homogenized pap designed to please focus groups. It's an honesty rarely seen these days. And, it does reveal that he's not a perfect person. I do have to chuckle at how effectively the President uses twitter to tweak the biased media and progressives. He's certainly a lightning rod that draws their full attention. So much so that they spend inordinate time criticizing and analyzing them ad nauseam. I appreciate how he's been playing them like a piano while he goes about the business of straightening out the country. And they don't even realize it!!
Where I have a problem is the way you continually try to use "appeal to authority" as the final say in your arguments or to prove your point. (See Red Spawn's recent post.) The material presented expresses opinions reached by those being quoted. But most of this opinion comes from people who start out with a view point that almost certainly leads to their conclusions -- a self-fulfilling prophecy if you will. That makes the analysis essentially worthless.
#8723
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Posted 2017-December-30, 17:54
rmnka447, on 2017-December-30, 16:17, said:
Thank you for an honest listing of the sources and how you came to where you are now in your views. You're obviously very intelligent and well spoken for your point of view. However, I do wonder if you realize just how much you are ensnared in the progressive/liberal left wing media bubble.
In fact, I come from the opposite direction in my political outlook. I grew up as a Democrat and remained so through the Nixon years. But at some point in the seventies, I realized how out of touch Democrats were with the workings of the American economy. Most of that was the result of getting a good grounding in economics in business school. I understood that the things that they were recommending were exactly the wrong thing to straighten out the stagflation that was going on. So, I changed outlook and have never had any reason to regret that decision.
I've never listened to Rush Limbaugh or subscribed to his version of conservatism. And I rarely watch Hannity for more than a few minutes. I actually try to watch CNN and MSNBC some, but often find the comments and analysis so outrageously biased or false that I turn them off. I don't ever watch certain out of touch commentators like MSNBC's Joy Reid or Rachel Maddow. Even my liberal friends say their views are too radical. I hope you will notice I didn't refer to progressive/liberal bubble as the Reid/Maddow-type left wing media bubble. That's a form of guilt by association that I will not engage in.
If anything, the thing I'm worried most about is the neurotic paranoia/mass hysteria the left has about Donald Trump as President. From election night on, the outrage, hatred and abhorrence of President Trump has been continued and palpable. Mostly, it has manifested itself in a near insane obsession with the idea of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. Progressives are dead certain it occurred and then try to conflate everything as proof of that "certainty". IMO, it gets ridiculous at times.
As for President Trump's twitter tweets, some would be better if not made. But, you're getting an unvarnished view of his opinions, not some watered down, homogenized pap designed to please focus groups. It's an honesty rarely seen these days. And, it does reveal that he's not a perfect person. I do have to chuckle at how effectively the President uses twitter to tweak the biased media and progressives. He's certainly a lightning rod that draws their full attention. So much so that they spend inordinate time criticizing and analyzing them ad nauseam. I appreciate how he's been playing them like a piano while he goes about the business of straightening out the country. And they don't even realize it!!
Where I have a problem is the way you continually try to use "appeal to authority" as the final say in your arguments or to prove your point. (See Red Spawn's recent post.) The material presented expresses opinions reached by those being quoted. But most of this opinion comes from people who start out with a view point that almost certainly leads to their conclusions -- a self-fulfilling prophecy if you will. That makes the analysis essentially worthless.
In fact, I come from the opposite direction in my political outlook. I grew up as a Democrat and remained so through the Nixon years. But at some point in the seventies, I realized how out of touch Democrats were with the workings of the American economy. Most of that was the result of getting a good grounding in economics in business school. I understood that the things that they were recommending were exactly the wrong thing to straighten out the stagflation that was going on. So, I changed outlook and have never had any reason to regret that decision.
I've never listened to Rush Limbaugh or subscribed to his version of conservatism. And I rarely watch Hannity for more than a few minutes. I actually try to watch CNN and MSNBC some, but often find the comments and analysis so outrageously biased or false that I turn them off. I don't ever watch certain out of touch commentators like MSNBC's Joy Reid or Rachel Maddow. Even my liberal friends say their views are too radical. I hope you will notice I didn't refer to progressive/liberal bubble as the Reid/Maddow-type left wing media bubble. That's a form of guilt by association that I will not engage in.
If anything, the thing I'm worried most about is the neurotic paranoia/mass hysteria the left has about Donald Trump as President. From election night on, the outrage, hatred and abhorrence of President Trump has been continued and palpable. Mostly, it has manifested itself in a near insane obsession with the idea of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. Progressives are dead certain it occurred and then try to conflate everything as proof of that "certainty". IMO, it gets ridiculous at times.
As for President Trump's twitter tweets, some would be better if not made. But, you're getting an unvarnished view of his opinions, not some watered down, homogenized pap designed to please focus groups. It's an honesty rarely seen these days. And, it does reveal that he's not a perfect person. I do have to chuckle at how effectively the President uses twitter to tweak the biased media and progressives. He's certainly a lightning rod that draws their full attention. So much so that they spend inordinate time criticizing and analyzing them ad nauseam. I appreciate how he's been playing them like a piano while he goes about the business of straightening out the country. And they don't even realize it!!
Where I have a problem is the way you continually try to use "appeal to authority" as the final say in your arguments or to prove your point. (See Red Spawn's recent post.) The material presented expresses opinions reached by those being quoted. But most of this opinion comes from people who start out with a view point that almost certainly leads to their conclusions -- a self-fulfilling prophecy if you will. That makes the analysis essentially worthless.
The problem I have with Trump is his character - and I can't grasp how any American can continue to support a president that attacks the free press, the FBI, the Justice Department, and anyone else who may disagree with him, who has neither the capacity or interest to understand his job, and who continually uses the WH as a business promotion tool.
You were not with me, but I said early on to my spouse that what would bring down Trump was Russia - and that is why I post on that subject. I was rabidly anti-Trump - not pro Clinton - during the election. Trump has done nothing to alter my views about him or his mission or abilities.
Where we are missing as a country is in the ability to say, my position may be flawed and I am willing to work a compromise to find a solution to our problems. Too often all we hear is "do it my way", and, unfortunately, this for the last 9 years has been the position of the right wing, especially the tea party branch. Perhaps this is the influence of religion on politics, that it is better to die right-wing (aka Christian right) than to compromise with a Democrat (aka the Antichrist).
The good news is that nothing Trump has done so far cannot be undone other than the SC nominations and the federal judges he has placed on the bench. But even that is slowing down, as I just read that 100 of his judicial nominees had just been rejected by the Republicans themselves.
Here'e hoping you will change your mind.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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Posted 2017-December-30, 18:15
Winstonm, on 2017-December-30, 17:54, said:
The good news is that nothing Trump has done so far cannot be undone other than the SC nominations and the federal judges he has placed on the bench. But even that is slowing down, as I just read that 100 of his judicial nominees had just been rejected by the Republicans themselves.
Even the Supreme Court nomination can be undone...
After the bullshit that McConnell pulled, I see no good reason why we should have 11 justices on the Supreme Court.
Happy to pack the living ***** out of the Circuit Courts as well...
Alderaan delenda est
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Posted 2017-December-30, 18:59
hrothgar, on 2017-December-30, 18:15, said:
Even the Supreme Court nomination can be undone...
After the bullshit that McConnell pulled, I see no good reason why we should have 11 justices on the Supreme Court.
Happy to pack the living ***** out of the Circuit Courts as well...
After the bullshit that McConnell pulled, I see no good reason why we should have 11 justices on the Supreme Court.
Happy to pack the living ***** out of the Circuit Courts as well...
I support hrothgar in this. If you don't like the way the system works, work on changing the system! Whining and crying foul when your opponent effectively uses the current system against you is just infantile.
A major example is the recent Presidential election. The system as constructed uses the Electoral College to determine who wins the Presidency. The frequent and common reference to Clinton winning the popular vote is just infantile whining.
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Posted 2017-December-31, 04:30
ldrews, on 2017-December-30, 18:59, said:
I support hrothgar in this. If you don't like the way the system works, work on changing the system! Whining and crying foul when your opponent effectively uses the current system against you is just infantile.
Please note: I am a firm believer that Washington works best when it respects institutional norms.
I find it regrettable that this has all been thrown by the wayside.
I find it hysterical that the "conservative" is the one making the strongest argument in favor of doing so...
drews the arch conservative doesn't even understand the basics about conservativism...
In all seriousness, have you read Burke or Oakshott?
Do comments like the following resonate with you at all "The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society."?
Alderaan delenda est
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Posted 2017-December-31, 07:51
Winstonm, on 2017-December-30, 17:54, said:
The problem I have with Trump is his character - and I can't grasp how any American can continue to support a president that attacks the free press, the FBI, the Justice Department, and anyone else who may disagree with him, who has neither the capacity or interest to understand his job, and who continually uses the WH as a business promotion tool.
You were not with me, but I said early on to my spouse that what would bring down Trump was Russia - and that is why I post on that subject. I was rabidly anti-Trump - not pro Clinton - during the election. Trump has done nothing to alter my views about him or his mission or abilities.
Where we are missing as a country is in the ability to say, my position may be flawed and I am willing to work a compromise to find a solution to our problems. Too often all we hear is "do it my way", and, unfortunately, this for the last 9 years has been the position of the right wing, especially the tea party branch. Perhaps this is the influence of religion on politics, that it is better to die right-wing (aka Christian right) than to compromise with a Democrat (aka the Antichrist).
The good news is that nothing Trump has done so far cannot be undone other than the SC nominations and the federal judges he has placed on the bench. But even that is slowing down, as I just read that 100 of his judicial nominees had just been rejected by the Republicans themselves.
Here'e hoping you will change your mind.
You were not with me, but I said early on to my spouse that what would bring down Trump was Russia - and that is why I post on that subject. I was rabidly anti-Trump - not pro Clinton - during the election. Trump has done nothing to alter my views about him or his mission or abilities.
Where we are missing as a country is in the ability to say, my position may be flawed and I am willing to work a compromise to find a solution to our problems. Too often all we hear is "do it my way", and, unfortunately, this for the last 9 years has been the position of the right wing, especially the tea party branch. Perhaps this is the influence of religion on politics, that it is better to die right-wing (aka Christian right) than to compromise with a Democrat (aka the Antichrist).
The good news is that nothing Trump has done so far cannot be undone other than the SC nominations and the federal judges he has placed on the bench. But even that is slowing down, as I just read that 100 of his judicial nominees had just been rejected by the Republicans themselves.
Here'e hoping you will change your mind.
I said this before but if Trump were a money-laundering, election-colluding, pussy-grabbing Presidential candidate then perhaps his candidacy should have received a more thorough vetting from the media and Republican National Committee.
The Trump brand name has national presence since the 80's, so there was plenty of material to review and uncover. The Trump name also has a global presence with all of these golf resort real estate properties so I marvel at how our media didn't go for the jugular long ago.
I find it remarkable that, regardless of his character, an owner of casinos that filed for bankruptcy several times hasn't been heavily vetted for potential money laundering crimes. Oversight? Maybe. Maybe not.
But I will submit to the forum that the Year of 2017 was nothing more than the D.C. establishment throwing a temper tantrum and a kitchen sink at Trump for his victory of the federal election. These D.C. codgers play dirty politics and always have. Trump wasn't a serious problem until he won the federal election and flipped over the D.C. establishment power broker tables like Jesus flipped over the tables of the money changers.
Is Trump going to change D.C.? Hell no, because he is no Jesus. He is a part of the problem--the broken campaign finance system that no one will touch. But those who are already in power do not appreciate arrogant, mercurial newbies who were formerly political campaign donors demanding a seat at the POWER BROKER table in Washington D.C. by securing the position of President of the United States.
This move establishes a new power dynamic that requires a counterbalance. An ongoing grand jury investigation about foreign election collusion is one way to retard Trump's ability to bring change to D.C. -- whether good or bad.
As Winston said, Trump has a bevy of alarming character flaws, but that didn't stop his ascedency to power because the American people wanted change so bad they were willing to hire a brand marketing guru and snake oil salesman who promised it.
Should we blame voters who voted Trump or the campaign finance system and the party nominating committees that presented such horrid choices as Clinton versus Trump for a nation of 330,000,000?
Trump revealed how dirty and filthy the swamp is when he foolishly fired the FBI Director. He effectively became the enemy combatant of D.C. politics. We're still watching political kabuki theatre for a grave personnel decision he made in early 2017; 2018 promises to be more of the same drama.
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Posted 2017-December-31, 08:25
hrothgar, on 2017-December-31, 04:30, said:
Please note: I am a firm believer that Washington works best when it respects institutional norms.
I find it regrettable that this has all been thrown by the wayside.
I find it hysterical that the "conservative" is the one making the strongest argument in favor of doing so...
drews the arch conservative doesn't even understand the basics about conservativism...
In all seriousness, have you read Burke or Oakshott?
Do comments like the following resonate with you at all "The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society."?
I find it regrettable that this has all been thrown by the wayside.
I find it hysterical that the "conservative" is the one making the strongest argument in favor of doing so...
drews the arch conservative doesn't even understand the basics about conservativism...
In all seriousness, have you read Burke or Oakshott?
Do comments like the following resonate with you at all "The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society."?
Apparently you cannot read. As I have mentioned many times, I am not a conservative or a liberal, I am a limited government libertarian. But that exceeds that capacity of your two category mind. Oh well.
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Posted 2017-December-31, 09:14
ldrews, on 2017-December-31, 08:25, said:
Apparently you cannot read. As I have mentioned many times, I am not a conservative or a liberal, I am a limited government libertarian. But that exceeds that capacity of your two category mind. Oh well.
Sorry, I do tend to lump all the contemptible little cults together in my mind.
It is a bad habit...
Alderaan delenda est
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Posted 2017-December-31, 09:25
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Posted 2017-December-31, 09:34
RedSpawn, on 2017-December-31, 07:51, said:
I said this before but if Trump were a money-laundering, election-colluding, pussy-grabbing Presidential candidate then perhaps his candidacy should have received a more thorough vetting from the media and Republican National Committee.
....because the American people wanted change so bad they were willing to hire a brand marketing guru and snake oil salesman who promised it.
Should we blame voters who voted Trump or the campaign finance system and the party nominating committees that presented such horrid choices as Clinton versus Trump for a nation of 330,000,000?
....because the American people wanted change so bad they were willing to hire a brand marketing guru and snake oil salesman who promised it.
Should we blame voters who voted Trump or the campaign finance system and the party nominating committees that presented such horrid choices as Clinton versus Trump for a nation of 330,000,000?
How much do we know about others in the business world? Before an organization spends money on investigation, it expects an ROI in the form of readers/watchers/listeners. Once the business man is in office, interest rises.
I'm not so sure the vote was about change but was about how successfully the anti-Clinton propaganda machine worked over many years - it still re-hashes the 1990s. As was the Russia bot effect, the idea was to dirty Hillary to a degree where marginal Hillary voters had enough doubt to stay home while detractors were energized to vote.
Yes, we should blame the voters. No one held a gun to their head to force a Trump vote.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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Posted 2017-December-31, 09:59
Winstonm, on 2017-December-31, 09:34, said:
How much do we know about others in the business world? Before an organization spends money on investigation, it expects an ROI in the form of readers/watchers/listeners. Once the business man is in office, interest rises.
I'm not so sure the vote was about change but was about how successfully the anti-Clinton propaganda machine worked over many years - it still re-hashes the 1990s. As was the Russia bot effect, the idea was to dirty Hillary to a degree where marginal Hillary voters had enough doubt to stay home while detractors were energized to vote.
Yes, we should blame the voters. No one held a gun to their head to force a Trump vote.
I'm not so sure the vote was about change but was about how successfully the anti-Clinton propaganda machine worked over many years - it still re-hashes the 1990s. As was the Russia bot effect, the idea was to dirty Hillary to a degree where marginal Hillary voters had enough doubt to stay home while detractors were energized to vote.
Yes, we should blame the voters. No one held a gun to their head to force a Trump vote.
We should praise the voters for a much needed change in direction of our government. Under Trump's watch we have seen an improved economy, more jobs, less unemployment, higher consumer confidence, record stock market, reduced regulations, reduced taxes for 80% of the taxpayers. That is in just one year.
Thank you voters!
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Posted 2017-December-31, 10:29
I think rmnka missed the update. The current party line isn't "There is no proof of collusion at all, how ridiculous is that?", it is "What's wrong with collusion, trying to ease the tensions with Russia?"
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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Posted 2017-December-31, 10:36
cherdano, on 2017-December-31, 10:29, said:
I think rmnka missed the update. The current party line isn't "There is no proof of collusion at all, how ridiculous is that?", it is "What's wrong with collusion, trying to ease the tensions with Russia?"
It's hard to keep up. I think the latest is "The Grinch stole Christmas!"
NYT
Quote
TRUMP: [Inaudible.] There was tremendous collusion on behalf of the Russians and the Democrats.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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Posted 2017-December-31, 10:49
The reason Trump won the election is because he promised to restore white privilege.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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Posted 2017-December-31, 10:51
Winstonm, on 2017-December-31, 10:36, said:
It's hard to keep up. I think the latest is "The Grinch stole Christmas!"
NYT
NYT
There does seem to be some significant evidence that the Steele Dossier, which was paid for by the DNC and Clinton Campaign, was dressed up and used as justification for the FISA warrants to surveil the Trump campaign staff and Trump himself. The FBI has already confirmed that they are unable to validate the claims in the dossier. Senator Lindsay Graham is calling for another special counsel to investigate this matter since both the DOJ and FBI may be complicit.
We live in interesting times!
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Posted 2017-December-31, 10:53
Winstonm, on 2017-December-31, 10:36, said:
It's hard to keep up. I think the latest is "The Grinch stole Christmas!"
I thought it was "Democrats agree that the Mueller will apologize for investigating me before Christmas"
Although, from what I understand "Why doesn't Ivanka give her daddy hand jobs any more" is another frequent refrain...
Alderaan delenda est
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Posted 2017-December-31, 10:57
Winstonm, on 2017-December-31, 09:34, said:
How much do we know about others in the business world? Before an organization spends money on investigation, it expects an ROI in the form of readers/watchers/listeners. Once the business man is in office, interest rises.
I'm not so sure the vote was about change but was about how successfully the anti-Clinton propaganda machine worked over many years - it still re-hashes the 1990s. As was the Russia bot effect, the idea was to dirty Hillary to a degree where marginal Hillary voters had enough doubt to stay home while detractors were energized to vote.
Yes, we should blame the voters. No one held a gun to their head to force a Trump vote.
I'm not so sure the vote was about change but was about how successfully the anti-Clinton propaganda machine worked over many years - it still re-hashes the 1990s. As was the Russia bot effect, the idea was to dirty Hillary to a degree where marginal Hillary voters had enough doubt to stay home while detractors were energized to vote.
Yes, we should blame the voters. No one held a gun to their head to force a Trump vote.
Ummm, but we have talked infinitum about the character issues behind HRC and how her Presidential campaign financing the debts of the DNC (the Presidential nominating committee) created conflicts of interests. The DNC could not act like an independent, objective body under this financial arrangement and became corrupted. The DNC effectively became an agent for the principal (HRC). Source: https://www.politico...cks-2016-215774
**The Presidential debate questions that the agent (DNC) funneled in advance of the actual debate with Bernie Sanders to the principal (HRC campaign). Source: http://www.foxnews.c...inton-camp.html
**The Wikileaks e-mails that revealed that the agent (DNC) wanted to paint Bernie in a negative light through his religious stance to benefit the principal (HRC campaign). This is what agents do. They support and act on behalf on those who bankroll them! Source: https://www.politico...religion-226072
**The undisclosed, clandestine "ex parte" meeeting at the Phoenix tarmac between HRC's husband and his former subordinate AG Loretta Lynch prior to the Justice Department interviewing HRC about the e-mail server scandal. We are left with implausible and unlikely theories as to the thrust of this "bad optics" meeting given the high political stakes involved. Obstruction of justice is possible but not provable given the limited amount of evidence available. The Justice Department tries to find the whistleblower because of the fallout. Source: https://www.newsmax....2/11/id/831117/
http://www.foxnews.c...hdog-group.html
**The e-mail server debacle and HRC's refusal to own her own negligence in a timely, mature, direct, and transparent way.
How HRC and her husband treat and respond to the legal system and its process is a very big character issue because it's the same thing we are talking about with TRUMP! Do they respect the rule of law or act like they're above it?
HRC comes off as overly guarded and quite evasive and elusive when a mistake in judgment is involved. How will she act when she makes a mistake in judgment in the White House?
Are voters supposed to ignore these BIG character flaws and still vote Clinton?
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Posted 2017-December-31, 11:12
RedSpawn, on 2017-December-31, 10:57, said:
Are voters supposed to ignore these BIG character flaws?
Who are you going to invite to dinner, the lady who smells bad or Hannibal Lecter?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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Posted 2017-December-31, 11:17
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