legal point ranges

legal point ranges 2/1 ACBL

#1 dickiegera

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Posted 2017-June-22, 13:42

Two questions

#1. Is it ACBL legal to have an agreement to open weak 2's with 4-11 points/?

#2 Is it ACBL legal to have agreement that overcalls are 2-16 points?

#2 olegru

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Posted 2017-June-22, 14:21

I am not certified director, so I may be wrong.
According the definitions: "An opening suit bid or response is considered natural if in a minor it shows
three or more cards in that suit and in a major it shows four or more cards in that suit."

For best of my knowledge ACBL has no authority to regulate natural bids, so mentioned agreement cannot be illegal.

#3 steve2005

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Posted 2017-June-22, 14:34

dickiegera, on 2017-June-22, 13:42, said:

#1. Is it ACBL legal to have an agreement to open weak 2's with 4-11 points/?

"weak two-bids which by partnership agreement are not within a range of 7 HCP and do not show at least five cards in the suit"
So this would [edit] not [edit] be allowed as long as your promising a 5+ card suit. Note 4-11 or 5-12 would not,
Technically it's not the weak 2 that is not allowed you can actually use a wide range weak 2 but then your not allowed any conventional responses or rebids. So no Ogust, feature, Keycard etc.
The actual rules can be found at GCC. There are other rules for other events Mid-char and Super-chart.

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#4 steve2005

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Posted 2017-June-22, 14:35

dickiegera, on 2017-June-22, 13:42, said:

#2 Is it ACBL legal to have agreement that overcalls are 2-16 points?

Natural overcalls this weak are allowed as they are not a convention but natural. You would have to pre-alert your opponents that your overcalls can be very weak.

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#5 RMB1

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Posted 2017-June-22, 14:53

olegru, on 2017-June-22, 14:21, said:

For best of my knowledge ACBL has no authority to regulate natural bids, so mentioned agreement cannot be illegal.

Natural bids can be regulated if they are declared to be "special partnership understanding" (Law 40).

If is not unreasonable to declare weak opening bids and overcalls as "special" even if they are natural.

However, the ACBL takes a different approach. They do not regulate natural bids, but they do regulate artificial calls in the subsequent auction following natural weak opening bids.

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#6 blackshoe

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Posted 2017-June-22, 16:33

Yes. That's a historical relic, though, from the days before the "special understanding" thing became law. Perhaps the ACBL will eventually update the regulations to reflect this ten year old law. Or perhaps not.

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#7 Vampyr

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Posted 2017-June-22, 17:53

steve2005, on 2017-June-22, 14:34, said:

"weak two-bids which by partnership agreement are not within a range of 7 HCP and do not show at least five cards in the suit"
So this would be allowed as long as your promising a 5+ card suit. Note 3-11 or 4-12 would not,
Technically it's not the weak 2 that is not allowed you can actually use a wide range weak 2 but then your not allowed any conventional responses or rebids. So no Ogust, feature, Keycard etc.
The actual rules can be found at GCC. There are other rules for other events Mid-char and Super-chart.

I thought it was established in another thread that 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 counted as an eight-point range.

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#8 blackshoe

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Posted 2017-June-22, 18:39

Vampyr, on 2017-June-22, 17:53, said:

I thought it was established in another thread that 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 counted as an eight-point range.

If 15-17 is a three point range (I believe it is) then 4-11 is an eight point range. So 4-11 for a weak two bid, while legal, would preclude using conventions after that opening. The range on my various cards is 5-11.

#9 steve2005

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Posted 2017-June-22, 19:22

yes then if 15-17is 3 pt range correct what I said by 1

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#10 barmar

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Posted 2017-June-23, 09:00

ACBL has been working on replacements for the Convention Charts, and IIRC it makes it clear what they mean by "point range", since this has been a frequent question about the old regulation.

#11 johnu

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Posted 2017-June-23, 11:46

The proposed new convention chart defines the range as

“Range”: One more than the difference between the highest number of HCP a bid can be and the lowest.

So, range = 1 + (17 - 15) = 3

and for 4-11, range = 1 + (11 - 4) = 8

#12 Zelandakh

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Posted 2017-July-06, 07:08

johnu, on 2017-June-23, 11:46, said:

That would also seem finally to provide an answer for the long-standing non-continuous range question - 11-12 or 16-17 is officially a 7 point range and not a 4 point one.

(-: Zel :-)

#13 barmar

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Posted 2017-July-06, 09:59

Zelandakh, on 2017-July-06, 07:08, said:

That would also seem finally to provide an answer for the long-standing non-continuous range question - 11-12 or 16-17 is officially a 7 point range and not a 4 point one.

In fact, the new chart makes this very clear in its examples:

Quote

Range: “15-17” is a range of three points (1 + [17-15]). “10-12 or 15-17” is a range of 8 points (1 + [17-10]).

You can find a draft of the Level 3 chart (which will replace the Mid-Chart, but definitions are presumably independent of the chart level) at https://docs.google....czoUwU7II/edit#

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