BBO Discussion Forums: Scrambled Mitchell - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Scrambled Mitchell How Many Arrow switches?

#1 User is offline   zasanya 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 747
  • Joined: 2003-December-24
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Thane,Mumbai,Maharashtra,India
  • Interests:Chess,Scrabble,Bridge

Posted 2017-February-13, 19:27

I was told that in a scrambled Mitchell movement 25% of the total deals should be 'arrowswitched'. Is that true? If yes, please explain why.
Aniruddha
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
"Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius".
0

#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-13, 21:41

 zasanya, on 2017-February-13, 19:27, said:

I was told that in a scrambled Mitchell movement 25% of the total deals should be 'arrowswitched'. Is that true? If yes, please explain why.


25% is incorrect 12.5% is right.

I cannot give you the numbers, but this optimises comparisons with players in the opposite direction.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#3 User is offline   fromageGB 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,679
  • Joined: 2008-April-06

Posted 2017-February-14, 05:52

Would it be a better comparison if boards were switched for part-rounds?
For example, in an 8 table 3-boards-a-round, rather than switch the last round, you switched the first board on round 6, the second board on round 7, and the last board on round 8?
0

#4 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-14, 05:55

 fromageGB, on 2017-February-14, 05:52, said:

Would it be a better comparison if boards were switched for part-rounds?
For example, in an 8 table 3-boards-a-round, rather than switch the last round, you switched the first board on round 6, the second board on round 7, and the last board on round 8?


And then you could go to the computer and enter in all the tables that failed to arrow-switch...

I have always thought there should be arrow-switches in Swiss Pairs, but the same problem would apply.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#5 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-14, 06:40

 Vampyr, on 2017-February-14, 05:55, said:

And then you could go to the computer and enter in all the tables that failed to arrow-switch...

I have always thought there should be arrow-switches in Swiss Pairs, but the same problem would apply.

Yes, an arrow-switching schedule could be improved if done on a board-by-board basis, but it would be likely to cause lots of failures to comply.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,686
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2017-February-14, 10:32

I don't know if "cause" is the right term. Certainly it would lead to that, but the cause would, I think, be failure to educate players and also failure of players, "educated" or not, to understand or remember that they should comply.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#7 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,570
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-February-15, 10:10

 blackshoe, on 2017-February-14, 10:32, said:

I don't know if "cause" is the right term. Certainly it would lead to that, but the cause would, I think, be failure to educate players and also failure of players, "educated" or not, to understand or remember that they should comply.

You're distinguishing ultimate and proximate cause, but does it really matter? The result will still be the same: confusion. If you try to run a complicted movement, you have to be prepared to deal with the inevitable mistakes.

#8 User is offline   chrism 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 218
  • Joined: 2006-February-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chevy Chase, MD, USA

Posted 2017-February-15, 10:15

One reference explaining the 1/8 guide is this article by Ross Moore
0

#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,686
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2017-February-15, 10:16

 barmar, on 2017-February-15, 10:10, said:

You're distinguishing ultimate and proximate cause, but does it really matter? The result will still be the same: confusion. If you try to run a complicted movement, you have to be prepared to deal with the inevitable mistakes.

Yes, you do. B-)
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-15, 18:06

 blackshoe, on 2017-February-14, 10:32, said:

I don't know if "cause" is the right term. Certainly it would lead to that, but the cause would, I think, be failure to educate players and also failure of players, "educated" or not, to understand or remember that they should comply.


Here sometimes players to fail to arrow-switch the first board of a round. It is not often, but it happens. Is your experiene different? Also, at least at present, Bridgemates can display compass positions in a round, but not for a single board.

On a related note, at the famous North London bridge club, we have to play revenge rounds with 12 tables, because the chief tournament director does not trust the players to handle a double-weave Mitchell. Player education cannot accomplish miracles.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#11 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-16, 01:20

 Vampyr, on 2017-February-15, 18:06, said:

On a related note, at the famous North London Bridge club, we have to play revenge rounds with 12 tables, because the chief tournament director does not trust the players to handle a double-weave Mitchell. Player education cannot accomplish miracles.

The CTD doesn't trust them to player a share-and-relay Mitchell either?
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#12 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-16, 04:19

 gordontd, on 2017-February-16, 01:20, said:

The CTD doesn't trust them to player a share-and-relay Mitchell either?


(Translation for Americans: relay-and-byestand)

The trouble is that the session cannot run over three hours, so the club cannot handle any delays associated with sharing two-board rounds.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#13 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,570
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-February-16, 09:42

 Vampyr, on 2017-February-15, 18:06, said:

On a related note, at the famous North London bridge club, we have to play revenge rounds with 12 tables

Am I the only one who was thinking that at this club, "revenge" is likely to have a different meaning?

#14 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,408
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, D18; Chapala, D16

Posted 2017-February-16, 10:31

I can imagine that, in order to get one particular spot to be filled, they may have to award a free entry, at least...

[Edit: I'm sure this was obvious, but Just In Case, I'm not referring to Vampyr here...]
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,686
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2017-February-16, 23:08

 Vampyr, on 2017-February-16, 04:19, said:

(Translation for Americans: relay-and-byestand)

The trouble is that the session cannot run over three hours, so the club cannot handle any delays associated with sharing two-board rounds.

I must have missed something. Where is there sharing in a double-weave Mitchell?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#16 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-17, 01:47

 blackshoe, on 2017-February-16, 23:08, said:

I must have missed something. Where is there sharing in a double-weave Mitchell?

You have missed something. I wondered why, if they couldn't do a double weave, they couldn't do a share-and-relay rather than having a revenge round.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,686
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2017-February-17, 09:08

 gordontd, on 2017-February-17, 01:47, said:

You have missed something. I wondered why, if they couldn't do a double weave, they couldn't do a share-and-relay rather than having a revenge round.

Fair enough. B-)
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#18 User is offline   BudH 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 475
  • Joined: 2004-April-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Bend, Indiana, USA
  • Interests:Operations Supervisor/Technical Advisor at nuclear power plant, soccer and basketball referee for more than 25 years; GLM; Ex-Head (Game) Director at South Bend (Indiana) Bridge Club; avid student of bridge law and game movements

Posted 2017-March-22, 14:22

Too bad I won't be able to use any of this Scrambled Mitchell information at my local club. Earlier this month, my local club Board of Directors relieved me of my Head Director duties and then shortly thereafter instructed me not to use any arrow switched (scrambled) Mitchells (because so many players have complained about them - funny that in 6-table Howells when the table card is rotated at Tables 2 and 3 and opponents bid a slam they think nothing of it - but if I arrow switch the final round at ALL tables and the same thing happens, I have ripped the enjoyment of bidding and making 7NT from their hearts!)

The ratio of switched rounds to total rounds is optimized (depending on which sources you look at) when it equals

0.25 - (T-1)/(8T-4), where T = number of tables

Note for 5 to 16 tables, the ratios below are all slightly more than 1/8 (12.5%) confirming the common 1/8 guideline.

5, 13.89%
6, 13.64%
7, 13.46%
8, 13.33%
9, 13.24%
10, 13.16%
11, 13.10%
12, 13.04%
13, 13.00%
14, 12.96%
15, 12.93%
16, 12.90%
0

#19 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,408
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, D18; Chapala, D16

Posted 2017-April-04, 15:44

Heh, re: Revenge Round:

Last week I was in Bangalore. I played in one of the club games there.

20 tables. 20, one-board rounds, with a skip and a revenge round.

First time I've seen *that* movement.

The TD asked me (who knew I was a part time ACBL TD) what I do about perenially slow players. I mentioned that since we usually play two- or three-board rounds, at least I had *one* board to move...
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#20 User is offline   weejonnie 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 801
  • Joined: 2012-April-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North-east England
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, croquet

Posted 2017-April-04, 17:15

 mycroft, on 2017-April-04, 15:44, said:

Heh, re: Revenge Round:

Last week I was in Bangalore. I played in one of the club games there.

20 tables. 20, one-board rounds, with a skip and a revenge round.

First time I've seen *that* movement.

The TD asked me (who knew I was a part time ACBL TD) what I do about perenially slow players. I mentioned that since we usually play two- or three-board rounds, at least I had *one* board to move...

Wonder whether the TD knows the word 'duplicate' has more than one meaning in bridge. I suppose if your'e playing 20 1 board rounds then you could play a 20 table 24 board web Mitchell just as quickly. But maybe the club only has one set of boards . . . If the hands have to be dealt then it will only take a few minutes for them to be duplicated and the copy passed over to the other table.
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

2 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users