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Teaching the laws at the table

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 10:06

 jillybean, on 2011-December-18, 14:58, said:

I say, nicely I thought, you may want to wait until your partner makes her lead face down before you ask that.

In this thread the responses made it clear that the comment was inappropriate, and I agree.


 pran, on 2012-January-13, 07:55, said:

If the mood at the table calls for it I may make a friendly comment that "you should have used STOP here".

In this thread, the comment is acceptable.

What is the difference, where do we draw the line when teaching laws at the table?
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#2 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 11:04

The first case is instructing opp as to judgement and/or etiquette (whether to ask or not when allowed by the rules) whereas the second is explaining that opp violated the rules.
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#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 11:24

Is either case a good idea for a player to do at the table? Is one of these something a director might do at the table?

IMHO, drawing attention to an irregularity is not the same as teaching the laws; and probably teaching at the table is a bad idea unless it is a teaching-type game for newbies who are expecting to be taught.
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#4 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 11:28

There's no difference - both are improper, in that they're breaches of Laws 74A2 and 74B2.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#5 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 11:40

In the first case, your LHO legally asked a question. In the second, your opponent committed an infraction. However, I would refrain altogether from teaching the rules at the table unless I'm asked. The right action when an opponent needs a lesson is to call the director. When it's a regular partner who needs the lesson, give it to him later, between rounds if there's time, or after the session if not. Trying to educate a pickup partner isn't worth the aggravation, imo. Although if they ask, or they're clearly a novice, you might give it a try.
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#6 User is offline   AlexJonson 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 14:46

My own recent experience is that partner failed to show the stop card because he had pulled the wrong card from the bidding box.

I wish my RHO had said... or maybe I don't.
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#7 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 15:51

In my case it is usually a matter of ignorance, and the players are regularly grateful for me explaining to them what they didn't know.

Calling the director and have him do the teaching is NOT the way to have them come back.
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#8 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 17:11

 pran, on 2012-January-14, 15:51, said:

Calling the director and have him do the teaching is NOT the way to have them come back.

It is if the director is called in the correct manner, and does the teaching properly.
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#9 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 17:50

 gordontd, on 2012-January-14, 17:11, said:

It is if the director is called in the correct manner, and does the teaching properly.

Excuse me asking, but do you have any experience in this field?
I do, and I can tell you that a safe way of getting rid of inexperienced players from a club is to have frequent director calls on them on matters like this regardless of how properly the call is made.
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#10 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 17:59

I fancy that the Assistant Chief TD of the EBU and TD at the world's foremost bridge club [well, they say they are! :)] probably has a little experience, yes.

Everything is in the attitude: when I call the TD with inexperienced opponents, no, they are not upset because of the way I call the TD. If someone calls me to the table and I explain to an inexperienced pair what they are doing wrong, no, they are not upset because of the way I explain to them. If your experience is different, pran, perhaps your approach is wrong.
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#11 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 21:03

 bluejak, on 2012-January-14, 17:59, said:

I fancy that the Assistant Chief TD of the EBU and TD at the world's foremost bridge club [well, they say they are! :)] probably has a little experience, yes.


I'd say so too. I'd also say that Sven has been around this forum long enough to know that Gordon is an experienced TD, and therefore he owes Gordon an apology.
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#12 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 04:00

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-14, 21:03, said:

I'd say so too. I'd also say that Sven has been around this forum long enough to know that Gordon is an experienced TD, and therefore he owes Gordon an apology.

Sorry, maybe I should have known but I didn't. Mea culpa.

My experience is that inexperienced players in particular are very vulnerable and sensitive about TD being called because of something they have done or not done.

As director I have found it wise to reassure them that such calls are perfectly normal whenever there seems to be an irregularity and nothing to be worried about.

I have also found that such players deliberately avoid clubs where they can expect (frequent) TD calls when they have the choice of a "more friendly club".

And I have had much positive feedback appreciating just my clarification of technical errors that give no cause for rectification, only for teaching.
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#13 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 08:44

 pran, on 2012-January-14, 17:50, said:

I can tell you that a safe way of getting rid of inexperienced players from a club is to have frequent director calls on them on matters like this regardless of how properly the call is made.

I think the fact that you talk of having director calls "on" players says something.
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 09:59

Given the degree to which everyone in this forum (including me) is occasionally sloppy about terminology, I suppose Sven can be forgiven this once for using the dreaded "he called the director on me!" construction. It is, of course, one of those things we should be educating people about - that calling the director is not done "on" anyone, it is done to aid the entire table in dealing with an irregularity. Particularly given that only the TD is supposed to do that.
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#15 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 10:43

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-15, 09:59, said:

Given the degree to which everyone in this forum (including me) is occasionally sloppy about terminology, I suppose Sven can be forgiven this once for using the dreaded "he called the director on me!" construction. It is, of course, one of those things we should be educating people about - that calling the director is not done "on" anyone, it is done to aid the entire table in dealing with an irregularity. Particularly given that only the TD is supposed to do that.

I deliberately used the term "called on" because that is the way inexperienced players very often feel it.

Part of my job as director is of course to make them understand what a call for the director really is, and as part of my effort to do this I actively encourage capable players to avoid calling the director on such "misdemeanours" that can easily be sorted out with a simple and friendly piece of education and where no rectification is warranted.

Believe me, it makes a world of difference to the "newbies" in bridge.

We don't shoot sparrows with guns and we don't apply the same standard when dealing with beginners as we do in Masters' league. (At least I do not.)
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 11:22

What do we shoot sparrows with? :P

It seems Sven and I are in agreement. :)
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#17 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 13:56

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-15, 11:22, said:

What do we shoot sparrows with? :P

It seems Sven and I are in agreement. :)

I suppose the correct translation of the Norwegian proverb would use the word cannons rather than guns?
A gun is any kind of firearm?
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#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 14:07

yeh, but we could still shoot them with arrows or darts.
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#19 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 16:11

Well, as a Naval officer, I learned that guns are mounted on ships, and personal weapons are therefore not guns, but the common use of "guns" is, as Sven says, pretty much "any kind of firearm". OTOH, my dictionary defines "gun" as "a weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force" and "firearm" as "a rifle, pistol, or other portable gun". So technically what most people think of when you say "gun" is in fact a gun, but "firearm" would be a better choice. And perhaps "cannon" or the more general "artillery" or "ordnance" would be a better choice in translating Sven's proverb.

Heh. I didn't expect to go down this road; I was just trying to be funny. Maybe I should just not do that. :(
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#20 User is offline   mrdct 

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Posted 2012-January-16, 06:46

Some jurisdictional and other contextual information would be useful here. Are we talking about a supervised play session here? A club duplicate at the senior citizens centre? A country congress? Something more serious?

In general, however, it would be inappropriate to do either while the hand (particularly the auction) was still in progress as both could potentially create UI issues; although technically in the latter case you could call the TD in relation to the irregularity. I would only ever consider giving unsolicited advice about laws and etiquette to players that I know well and would only do so at the end of a round if time permits.
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
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