BBO Discussion Forums: Don't talk about the war - BBO Discussion Forums

hrothgar, on 2020-November-08, 17:48, said:

Q. E. D.

Leopards, spots...

The folks constantly complaining about ad hominem attacks might do well to consider the following

https://imgs.xkcd.co...e_speech_2x.png

hrothgar, on 2020-November-09, 09:37, said:

There is also this:

Quote

What types of ad hominems might then be justified? Walton argues that an ad hominem is valid when the claims made about a person’s character or actions are relevant to the conclusions being drawn. Consider, for example, former New York governor Eliot Spitzer, who was caught on a wiretap arranging to hire a prostitute for $4,300. Because this behavior ran counter to Spitzer’s anticorruption platform, its unveiling would prevent Spitzer from governing successfully; thus, criticizing this aspect of his character was relevant and fair.

You do have the right to remain silent Dick. Why not, for once in your life, do some vigorous exercise and give us all a bit of a rest.

pilowsky, on 2020-November-09, 13:05, said:

Who is "us all"?

pilowsky, on 2020-November-09, 13:05, said:

Oh look...

Pilowsky has discovered penis jokes.

This is actually a real accomplishment for some one of his limited intellect.

Well done, chap!
Well done!

In the 1930s with the complicity of the United Kingdom and most of the rest of the world, a sufficiently large segment of the German population decided that the cause of all their problems was the Jewish people.
Many large American companies (e.g. IBM saw NAZI Germany as a business opportunity). The British royals and many aristocrats thought Hitler was OK.

Many of the Jewish people realised that this was happening and tried to leave.
Some of them succeeded some of them did not.
Some of them were prevented from doing so by other countries who felt that they should decide who should enter their country. Even though the land they stood on did not really belong to them.
One country that accepted them was China. Many great Australian Bridge players are descendants of these Shanghai Jews. It has a beautiful synagogue - I've visited it.

Now it is impossible to find a German who will say that they have any sympathy for Hitler. They all say that he was an aberration or that he was not their fault - like two-year-olds.

Australia is a small country. America is massive. When America shits, the stink is everywhere. When a stupid Australian believes something ridiculous, then it is of little import.
But when 70 million Trump supporters get together and ***** up the world that's a different matter.

So, don't lecture me on what I can and can't say. Don't lecture me about being a troll when America has singlehandedly created a nightmare that the rest of us have to live in.
It's not personal. I'm not saying you are a bad person when I say 'America'. I use the term 'America' about the current administration as chosen. E Pluribus Unum. You picked him, not me I've got my own problems Scott Morrison is a complete dill. Still, at least when he goes on holidays in the middle of the worst bushfires in Australian history, he gets roundly excoriated as he deserved. I do not reserve my scorn just for American idiocy. Don't worry; I call it out wherever I see it.
There's just so much of it.
Incompetence is everywhere. Only by working together and improving can we make things better.

It has nothing to do with being Australian, American, African or an Aardvark.

Ad hominem is one my favorite (note I now use US spelling) topics. Its become increasingly important and an essential consideration with increasing techno-fascistic tendencies in the world - and the constant use of one form of ad hominem (ie argumenet from authority) to silence debate

And, while its obviously acceptable (maybe not desirable) for individuals not to listen to someone they dislike or disagree with, when those in authority have power over platforms, I think we are entitled to ask questions and raise concerns

And I am going to go beyond platforms (many commerical, some ossibly now utilities) to the underlying technology of all our communications and who has (increasing) control and concetration over every aspect of the essential technologies we need in this world. They are utilities and need to be viewed as such. What concerns me most is that certain insitituions I use to trust implicityly have started to throw their weight around in a very alarming ay over recent years

And what is worse is when those insitituions have become compromised/corrupted through any manner of pressures (commercial etc). It is also concerning when they try to use, and have the power ofprofessional respect/disrespect with which to silence people who know what they are talking about

I will go further. When many of our platforms/technologies started up they came from or were under the power or control of people we respected to value freedom. Countries and institutions. Sadly that is no longer the case. Many things have changed during my lifetime

I for one am conerned. And yes. Much of it relates to ad hominem

But to continue. I may not be a professor in anything at all, but I have seen such total bullsht being argued from authority by so many people over recent years, that I and everyone else has the right (and always did) to raise concerns. Whether the concetration and control of power and technology to silence us if we dare challenge things time will tell. But in my mind the world will go to hell much faster if people are silenced too much

Some of us used to feel safe knowing there was somewhere in the world that believed passionately in free speech and had a constitution to back it up, as well as the technology to host it. These days with various authoritarian tendencies, countries/entities, and increasingly (previously free) institutions it is highly concerning

I am proud that I was good enough, worked hard enough, sacrified huge parts of my life to study in an institution that had etsablished itself against oppresion of thought and actually was the birthplace or starting point of another movement that spread to the USA to be free from oppression over thought and to continue in that vein through my whole life. Hopefully my trust in those passionate beiefs on freedom is not betrayed. At least in my house we are still relatively free to think and speak (CORRECTION I am relatively free to think and speak my mind). You never know, maybe I will die as the last bastion of free speech and thought. It feels that sometimes

But what I see everywhere and through my life has been a terrible betrayal of quality and philosophy in almost every area of our life and the world. Its actually been very frightening from a personal point of view but also from a global point of view. But some of us eventually get to a stage in our lives where we are prepared to risk any sanction and speak out against the perpatual bullshit. If the world goes to hell, what would I care. I spoke up.

You cannot go around silencing people, arguing from authority, using more and more controlling means to silence and control the world and still maintain trust.

I will also say I find it conderning when anyone on thse pages, who I have grown to trust and respect, especially those in some of those bastions of free thought and speech are talking about deplatforming. Sorry to go ad hom at all

Oh and something else, related to political tendencies and oppression. It strange when a group seemingly philosophically embeeded in dialetcic seems so totally incapabale of dealing with alternative points of view they seem to need to silence opposition.

But you never know when you are going to be blocked, silenced or just ignored. The brutal cruelty of this world is that instead of being sent to labour camps or gulags or mental insititutions you can just be blokced, ignored or deplatformed and everyone keeps their hands clean But in many ways its every bit as cruel, maybe ore so, because it is silent and hidden and totally controlling in every possible way.

But what I fear most is the way all the powerful interests are so concetrated in self-interest the world could truly go to techno-fascistic hell. The privleged in their little bubbles (for a while) and the majority out there screaming in pain

Finally, if you want an example of what I am talking about. Its when members of the academe, many members of the media, the majority of the left/progressive tendencies were so intent in arguing against science, silencing aspects of science in relation to the bush fires last ywar. It was an aboslute disgrace that some have been so corrupt. I could have put it doen to dialectiic or debate. But when so-called experts and scientists speak blatant untruths - it is a big worry

My personal hell is coming to terms with having wasted a huge part of my life caring about, working for, and trying to do my bit to imporve a world that really wasnt worth it. Back to my whisky

thepossum, on 2020-November-14, 04:46, said:

Society is founded on ad hominem.

Our educational systems are designed to identify individuals whose opinions are worth listening to and separating out the idiots. Or, if you prefer, look at machine learning algorithms which are designed to identify weak learners with poor predictive power and downweight their inputs.

In my experience, those who complain about ad hominem attacks are f$ckwits who are upset that folks have figured them out and discount their "contributions" to debates. In particular, in this day and age when social media is dominated by deliberate attempts to "Flood the Zone with *****" ad hominem is the best defense.

Identify individuals who constantly provide inaccurate and useless information
Label them
De-platform them

I strongly recommend that you read the following

https://www.vox.com/...-misinformation

There has been a lot of discussion about the disintegration of civility. I live in Carroll County Maryland and there was a case in point in the paper this morning. There was an anti-Trump poster in a yard that neighbors objected to. Here is the essence:

Quote

This is a conservative county, at least by Maryland standards, so I imagine some of my neighbors voted for Trump. They and I, and I very much believe also my other Biden voting neighbors, could agree that we are glad that he is not our neighbor. Whatever his legal rights are or aren't, he is scum as far as I am concerned. He is an assistant principal at a high school [hence the note to the CCPS, the school system] so I gather the school system is not really all that happy either. But what about his rights? I reluctantly suppose he has some, but exactly what?

I finished high school in 1956 and, at least in St. Paul, you could not buy Lady Chatterley's Lover, or Howl. or other books that are now legal. I am glad that has changed but with such tracts we are speaking of something a person chooses to buy and read. With the poster, we are speaking of something an 8 year old passes while out for a bike ride.

Fighting words were once a defense against a charge of assault, I am not sure if they still are. If you went up to someone and called him a shiite for brains emeffer, you did not then get to file charges if he punched you in the jaw. If he shot you then yes that was still against the law, but if he punched you the judge would tell you that if you were not up for a fight then you should learn to watch how you speak.


Maybe this guy has a legal right to his banner, maybe the school system has to put up with it, but the rest of us can and do mourn the loss of civility.

kenberg, on 2020-November-14, 09:28, said:

Ken, this makes me wonder just what you personally think of the 70 million Trump voters?

Myself, I think a large percentage were duped; an unexpectedly large number are closet and overt racists; very few are what I would call "good" people if caring about others entails "good".

I do think you underestimate the enemy - people like Vladimir Putin and Steve Bannon and a myriad of others who are actively attacking liberal democracies around the world. Although I don't think a middle finger is the best method to reach those who have been duped, I have a lot of compassion for the sentiments of your neighbor.

At some point, civility must collapse against an adversary who is at war with you - at that point, those carrying a lawbook and civility to a gunfight are suckers.

kenberg, quoting a garden poster, on 2020-November-14, 09:28, said:

Cathartic, perhaps, but unlikely to win hearts and minds

kenberg, on 2020-November-14, 09:28, said:

On the net, insolence usually escapes unpunished

hrothgar, on 2020-November-09, 15:29, said:

You have to admit that it’s pretty funny when someone’s first name and surname...

Anyway, Pilowsky, this man (might be a teenage boy) is a nasty piece of work and everyone on these forums knows it. Pay no attention to what he says.

Vampyr, on 2020-November-14, 15:52, said:

My father seriously tried to convince my mother that Peter would be a good choice for a middle name....

hrothgar, on 2020-November-14, 16:46, said:

Boutros is Arabic for Peter. Unfortunately Ghali is not Arabic for pumpkin eater.

Vampyr, on 2020-November-14, 17:27, said:

When I tell my friends that someone on the internet called Richard Willey is making fun of me they do have trouble suppressing a smirk.
I also have a friend called Richard Head. It's hard to imagine what our parents were thinking sometimes.
At the moment my mother was 10cm dilated and the Obstetrician informed her of this fact she apparently turned to my father and said: "Now comes the moment of excruciating pain". I was out of earshot, so you'll just have to take my word for it.
That's what came of reading Dr Spock.

pilowsky, on 2020-November-14, 17:34, said:

I find this particular sentence hard to believe.

Ken means wise and Berg means mountain so I am a wise mountain.
My middle name is Richard.

This conversation is getting weird. But it's late, the bars are closed for virus control, so what's a little weirdness among friends.

kenberg, on 2020-November-14, 18:47, said:

Agreed!